AT / Raktenwerfer OKW revamp

This means that this is just a Raktenwerfer clone with the worst characteristics. Does not make sense. Stielgranate 41 was used because it is cool, but because we need the maximum amount of anything that fired at the enemy.

The Stielgranate was used because it turned the tiny 37mm into a formidable weapon that was capable of penetrating and destroying any tank, be it Allied or Axis, at all ranges.

People underestimate HEAT weaponry. When the Germans introduced their 7.5cm HEAT shells, the short 7.5cm became able to penetrate every tank on the planet, and that was in 1940.

Camo should be cover-restricted if not removed entirely. IF they remove it, add a 5th man, give it full range at vet 2 or something, and see how it is.

I think it should still start out at shorter range if its cost stays the same and its in the HQ.

The Stielgranate was used because it turned the tiny 37mm into a formidable weapon that was capable of penetrating and destroying any tank, be it Allied or Axis, at all ranges.

People underestimate HEAT weaponry. When the Germans introduced their 7.5cm HEAT shells, the short 7.5cm became able to penetrate every tank on the planet, and that was in 1940.

This grenade had a speed of 110 m / s (not very accurate) and a firing range of 200 meters. This is practically the same range as the Panzerschreck. But the Panzerschreck crew has two people, you can shoot and run. With PaK-36 you do not like, this is a suicidal last chance shot. So you overestimate Stielgranate 41.

I think it is fine...

I love the way it plays but I hate to play against it.

This grenade had a speed of 110 m / s (not very accurate) and a firing range of 200 meters. This is practically the same range as the Panzerschreck. But the Panzerschreck crew has two people, you can shoot and run. With PaK-36 you do not like, this is a suicidal last chance shot. So you overestimate Stielgranate 41.

Again it not "a suicidal last chance shot" it is only shot it would use.

Pak36 was obsolete and the Stielgranate 41 was the only way to make it viable. A crew woun't give their position by firing anything else. They would simply ambush and wait until enemy units where in range.

Again it not "a suicidal last chance shot" it is only shot it would use.

Pak36 was obsolete and the Stielgranate 41 was the only way to make it viable. A crew woun't give their position by firing anything else. They would simply ambush and wait until enemy units where in range.

Of course, he can make one shot and:
- firstly it will be surrounded, tanks are usually moved by a group and will be destroyed by another tank
- Secondly, the tanks are usually accompanied by infantry, so the infantry will also try to destroy the crew, and notice the infantry's chances are very good 200 meters from the cannon.
- in the third, the loader will have to leave the shelter and load the cannon on the barrel, this will unmask the cannon and the loader most likely the dubet is immediately killed

may not be entirely correct, but here are historical footage from the PAK-36
Show Spoiler

Of course, he can make one shot and:
- firstly it will be surrounded, tanks are usually moved by a group and will be destroyed by another tank
- Secondly, the tanks are usually accompanied by infantry, so the infantry will also try to destroy the crew, and notice the infantry's chances are very good 200 meters from the cannon.
- in the third, the loader will have to leave the shelter and load the cannon on the barrel, this will unmask the cannon and the loader most likely the dubet is immediately killed

may not be entirely correct, but here are historical footage from the PAK-36
Show Spoiler

Report tell a different story, according to The History of the Panzerjäger.
On 3 March 1942 the Panzerjäger got 2 Pak38 with Stielgranate, who where facing soviet heavy and Super heavy tank other weapons could not defeat. The Stielgrenate managed to destroy 2 of them and the Panzerjäger began to regain trust in their weapons.

According test that took place on 3 March 1942
"all 6 round hit and did destructive impact on T-34s"

Conclusions:
"The new Stielgranate 41 will allow the 3.7cm PAK, to be used as an effective ambush anti-tank gun against enemy tanks."

The rate of fire was low. In order to reload the weapon the would turn the barrel to left and the Stielgranate was load from the prone position. But this is rather irrelevant since it was used as ambush anti tank where it was all about the first shot.

The weapon was effective when operate by experienced crew and it was given to Fallschirmjäger that where elite unit.


These are historical fact and have little to do with the game.

Raketenwerfer should have the same range as any other AT gun. Currently it is inferior due to the fact it does not scale and adapt to many situations as other AT guns. I does not play a good role in supporting which all other faction AT guns can properly do. Penetration also being bad which makes AT gun bad in most situations.

Its lackluster range and on top of it being the utmost vulnerable makes it utterly useless in most situations. Since it does not scale well and adapts poorly.

Range is important which we all enjoy that privilege. It is limited as we all know it.

Has the highest received accuracy of all AT guns in addition to having the least range. Make this overall having the least survivability of them all.

Camo, which is an unrealistic and to an extent abusive feature should be removed. Maybe to an extent where it can camo but can not move slowly. Can rotate only. It plays currently role of recon. That is not what it should do. It should play a supportive Anti-tank role properly.

If you compare 2 AT guns this one and the USF AT gun, the prices are 270 to a price of 280.

USF AT gun is unspeakably one of the best AT guns in game due to the fact it can enhance both its range and penetration. A huge distinctive advantage and difference for that price.


A bug:

Currently in my experiences, it has been a bit buggy also. Sometimes it takes longer than necessary to shoot and then within that period it takes sometimes 2-3 seconds to shoot when deploy under camo. It sometimes happens which is frustrating. Something buggy with the Camo ability affecting it. Also, when trying to shoot under camo, it somehow decamo's first before even shooting making it utterly vulnerable. As it is now, it should shoot before it decamo. Sometimes it even decamo's while it is trying to acquire the target, it does not shoot. Either way it is a current issue.

Personally I would rather not use camo due to the way it currently is buggy as it is. It needs to play a consistent role like every other AT gun.


So, the changes I believe it requires are the following:

- Improve range to the same as any other AT gun
- Nerf Camo, as stated how on paragraph 3. OR Completely remove it.
- Improve Survivability to 5 man and keep the received accuracy. (Some compensation)
- Make this AT gun by default move faster than any other AT gun due to its size and vulnerability
- Locked first. Becomes available after 1 Base built.

Then it should play a suitable proper role as Anti-Tank rather than currently being a sneaky assassin which only attacks when the enemy is either stationary (due to the bug) or arrives at its own convenience.

Nix the camo, add it as a vet ability if needed but force immobility (or slow as fuuuuck like the zis) and add a 5th man. See how that goes. Keeps it unique but fixes a bit of what makes it annoying to use and annoying to play against. It's a start anyways...

Show Spoiler


As for the Raketten, we've brainstormed the following rough changes:

- Range from 50 to 55.
- Crew size from 4 to 5.
- Camouflage now at vet 1.
- Camouflage ability now locks the raketen in place. Cannot move or rotate unless revealed.

Reason for changes: less cheesy, more reliable in its role as an ATG, while still retaining most of its unique features.

I personally think it could also use a small buff to its traverse speed or aiming time as it seems to have trouble firing at targets moving through its arc, a lot of the time.

As for the Raketten, we've brainstormed the following rough changes:

- Range from 50 to 55.
- Crew size from 4 to 5.
- Camouflage now at vet 1.
- Camouflage ability now locks the raketen in place. Cannot move or rotate unless revealed.

I personally think it could also use a small buff to its traverse speed or aiming time as it seems to have trouble firing at targets moving through its arc, a lot of the time.

Why not make the camouflage automatic when stationary instead of a toggle?

Identical functionality, but a lot less fiddly to use.

You could do the same for the M-42 and the ZiS gun.

use the pak 40 skin with slight modifications and call it pak 38 reduce pen, give first strike bonus , done

We already know that it's possible to shorten a vehicle's barrel through custom skins, problem is that there's a hole left in the front and that we can only do it for vehicles so if it's not from Relic's side a modified Pak 40 to resemble more a Pak 38 is impossible sadly.

Why not make the camouflague automatic when stationary instead of a toggle?

Identical functionality, but a lot less fiddly to use.

You could do the same for the M-42 and the ZiS gun.

Could surely be an option, although I'm not sure if that'd work with certain interactions. For example if it'd have to rely on all of the crew being stationary as a check to apply the camo, moving a vehicle past it (forcing some of the crew to move) could unwillingly reveal it.

Could surely be an option, although I'm not sure if that'd work with certain interactions. For example if it'd have to rely on all of the crew being stationary as a check to apply the camo, moving a vehicle past it (forcing some of the crew to move) could unwillingly reveal it.

That's an acceptable tradeoff to be free of infuriating shift-queue-proof stealth toggles.

I once suggested a slight but radical change:
Make rak crew as able to fight inf as volskgren, as it were a volks squad with the rak ATG. 4 people, 3 to fight. 60% Firepower compared unupgraded volks. Voila! Now OKW can combine volks and raketen squads to be able to fight off up to medium armor from T0.

This was already the case before. Old crews from OKW were basically Volks models instead of bad performing support crews.

camo and retreat are raketen's identity

It's not good to get rid of that identity, and you can improve it in other ways

my suggestion)

cant move while raketen is camo

non-camo : range 50, sight 35

camo : range 55, sight 35

fix veterancy bonus

add sight+5(only camo) in vet 1

add range+5(only camo) in vet 2

add 5th man in vet 5

There is little point in leaving the 5th man until vet 5 as it's absolutely unattainable without it. Might as well allow it to onstagib tanks at vet 5 and it wouldn't even be a balance concern for how hard it is to get there.

Show Spoiler

As for the Raketten, we've brainstormed the following rough changes:

Reason for changes: less cheesy, more reliable in its role as an ATG, while still retaining most of its unique features.

I personally think it could also use a small buff to its traverse speed or aiming time as it seems to have trouble firing at targets moving through its arc, a lot of the time.

All of this sounds great, but I agree with Lago that auto camo would be preferred even if it potentially has some funky interactions.

If these changes happen, would the price be altered at all?

The unit need a veterancy overhaul providing bonus even when out of cover and when in garrison.

Reaction times should also be drastically reduced.

Ir also need more durability weather it damage reduction, extra member or something else.

camo and retreat are raketen's identity

It's not good to get rid of that identity, and you can improve it in other ways

my suggestion)

cant move while raketen is camo

non-camo : range 50, sight 35

camo : range 55, sight 35

fix veterancy bonus

add sight+5(only camo) in vet 1

add range+5(only camo) in vet 2

add 5th man in vet 5

Its current identity is overall crap as its currently not even a proper support AT weapon. OKW lacks proper AT tools in general. What I mean by that is even a mobile AT infantry unit which is limited to only 1 Pzshrek without snares is crap. It does not even have the power to scare like the rest of any other factions AT infantry unit. It does not fulfill a role as an AT unit as it fails miserably.

The Raketenwerfer you can just in most cases evade it and even counter Rak with ease. Rak does not stand as either as potent or even a supportive weapon. It fails miserably in many cases and situations. Every other faction, it fulfills the role and it is hard to ignore their devastating effect because what scares them is is its surprise cuz of the use of the fog of war (used as a surprise tactic n camo is not even required) and its range. Rak just surprises and it does not even have a dangerous enough effect. Nothing good about it.

Most of the time 1 AT gun with other factions is fine as it can always make a follow up and it is very consistent and devastating. With just 1 Raketenwerfer is not even enough because you need 2 to actually do something. Raketenwerfer is the worst AT gun in game and that is a fact.

Even then, the other AT guns range is long enough to even catch the enemy by surprise without even the use of camo.

Your suggestions does not change its problems, in fact does not seem to make any real improvements. Vet 5 to get 5 man. Are you serious?

Nobody ever gets Vet Raketenwerfer as their chances of survival is the slimmest of all. Always when I use it as properly as it can possibly be used. It gets usually one shot because of its immensive received accuracy. It's current identity I must say, is very poor.

Its current function is very poor. Same goes with Sturmpio with 1 Pzshrek. Although you can put it in buildings the rak, there is no real advantage because it shoots the infantry most of the time as there is no button to command it only to shoot vehicles.

In fact most of OKW identity is screwed up. The reason why anyone uses Puma mostly for OKW early since there is no other proper AT. Rakentenwerfer and Sturmpio Pzshrek fails to cause an impact of AT role in the game.

Getting Raketenwerfer although comes early is a piece of crap as it scales and its adaption is very poor.

For 270 manpower compared to USF 280 manpower AT gun. What a blasting difference and we all now that if we had to choose between the 2. I am sure mostly everyone would always go for the range and better support weapon.

Even then, it causes such a huge disadvantage as they can barely stand on one foot. The SU, WEHR, USF and UKF have proper AT weapons and utility. OKW is just lacking that area utterly, AT utility. Ignore the tanks. Just the AT utility available, it is lackluster.


Here is a real resolution to their lacking AT role:

- Make the range the same as any other AT gun in the game.

- Remove Camo. It is already unique as it can retreat. This is already unique.

- Make it 5 man Vet 0 (cuz Vet 5 is ridiculous) and keep the received accuracy. To have some sort of compensation. They will still sustain casualties but no as often as they currently do

- Make this AT gun by default move faster than any other instead of camo AT gun due to its size and vulnerability.


Resolution for Sturmpio:

Replace it with 2 Panzerbursche for 60 ammo. Why 70 ammo as it currently is which ridiculous. Penals costing the same manpower and AT package which is overall far more devastating for costing 60 ammo and have the strongest snare although range is shorter.

For price differences, it is simply unjustified!

Devs please consider these points. I am sure everyone else have too valid and strong points. These are just my arguments and opinion. I just want these elements to be improved and diverse! Make it more playable! Thank you also for bringing this new update tmrw! Continue the hard work!