The raketenwerfer.

I wanted to make this thread because i haven't seen any other thread about it in a while, and i suppose i do no harm in creating one.

Regarding the raketen, it obviously has its upsides and downsides though it is more commonly known for its very poor survivability. This is primarily because of the squad manning the gun being very clumped together which makes allied artillery very lethal compared to all the other AT guns.

Fortunaly, it also has some upsides. It has nondoctrinal camo which renders it invisible so as to ambush your enemies with it, something it is good at with good firerate and amazing penetrative firepower against all medium tanks and below. It is also available from the HQ without needing a truck unlike the MG34.

However, the poor crew survival rate is something that has been bugging me for a while, and i made this thread to make my own suggestion, alongside hearing those from others.

In short:

- increased range(possibly when cloaked to promote ambush- style gameplay?) w/o vet requirement
- More squadmembers? (not a fan considering this is OKW, a faction that from a gameplay perspective is supposed to be rather low on manpower though thats debatable)
- Make it a Pak40 clone (simple, possibly effective, but it will end up being a boring copy paste w/o anything significant when you remove the camo)
- something else i can add from the comments


But to be honest i primarily made this to see how others think about it. Just... be civil to eachother.

Make it a pak40. Done.

Making it a pak40 clone is ideal, just give OKW a normal AT gun instead of making it a special anti-tank gun that is annoying to use and face at the same time.

make it a pak 38

Give it the same green shield that all other ATs have, and fix the clumping.

I would be tempted to test it as infantry AT working more like shreck than an ATG, since it also rocket and not normal gun.

Reduce damage, reduce penetration add deflection damage reduce response times by allot.

Give it 180+180 arc when in trench.

Also fix the veterancy bonuses so that both cloak and garrison benefit from veterancy instead of current basically cloak approach.

If you turn it into a Pak you have to give the leig a retreat button to balance out the loss of the factional trade off. I would be OK with this. Otherwise spread the men out like other AT, give it at least a yellow cover bonus and make the cloak in line with snipers and partisans.

Give it the same green shield that all other ATs have, and fix the clumping.

I could have sworn someone posted some extensive notes showing that the AT gun shield doesn't actually work like 95% of the time.

The OKW revamp I was working on before last patch replaced the leig with a mortar HT and the raketen with a pak.

The raketen and leig were to be air dropped as a commander ability for Luftwaffe, along with MG34s. I never implemented this part since the commander was set to be redesigned.

I might salvage it in the future so it can be properly ignored on the Steam Workshop.

It was a lot more fun to make balance mods for testing when the community balance patch thing was in its infancy. So much naivete and hope back then.

I think the better solution is to update the squad clumping issue (same coding as Fall?). I like the Rekt and that feel of retreat and ambush tactics. I wouldn't want a Pak for OKW, it doesn't fit their aggressive fighting style.

T0 Pak 40 sounds like fun.

Fortunaly, it also has some upsides. It has non doctrinal camo which renders it invisible so as to ambush your enemies with it, something it is good at with good firerate and amazing penetrative firepower against all medium tanks and below. It is also available from the HQ without needing a truck unlike the MG34.

I just want to point out while its fire rate may be good, its aim time is still painfully long.

Also while cammo is nice, its only there to balance out the negatives of its short range and lack of survivability. Camo may be good, but firing from 60 range and from the FOW is better.

The rak really isn't that bad.
OKW is struggling, but not because of their AT power. Switching it out for the pak 40 is just moronic.

It's cheap, use them in pairs. Retreat early and baby them until they get some veterancy. Once they hit vet2 they become monsters. I think the real problem with the rak is how easy it is to steal them. 6 man soviet raks make me very sad.

I want it to focus on its ambush capabilities instead of its cheesy creep attack abilities. Give it full range when cloaked and in friendly territory. Then it can function as a defensive AT gun and not as a chase/hunt unit. Fixing crew spread is a must as well.

Make it a pak40. Done.

And rename faction wehrmacht with trucks.
Modders specifically said that stuff like 5 man grens for wehr or PaKs for OKW will never happen, because factions are getting way too similar to each other.
And having best of both worlds is hardly a balanced solution.

The rak really isn't that bad.
OKW is struggling, but not because of their AT power. Switching it out for the pak 40 is just moronic.

Exactly this. +1

And rename faction wehrmacht with trucks.
Modders specifically said that stuff like 5 man grens for wehr or PaKs for OKW will never happen, because factions are getting way too similar to each other.
And having best of both worlds is hardly a balanced solution.

We could make the rak have pak stats and keep its model. Then is looks different.

From what i can see in the comments, alot of people want it to be a Pak40 clone. While this would solve the unreliability problem, it will make OKW a bit less... diverse and fun, to be fair. This is why i stand against this, and would prefer to look in another direction like increased range when cloaked, or something else.

I just want to point out while its fire rate may be good, its aim time is still painfully long.

Also while cammo is nice, its only there to balance out the negatives of its short range and lack of survivability. Camo may be good, but firing from 60 range and from the FOW is better.

Whilst i understand that the aim time is rather long, do keep in mind that obviously the cloak is supposed to counteract this(and garrisons though thats dependant on the map more than the raketen). The raketen fills its own role as an ambush tool rather than a direct AT gun, which has its downsides and upsides.


The problem is when such a weapon is put in place as the only AT weapon at T0, aside from 1 pointless shreck on your engineers(should be 2 for 120 when 1 truck is set up imo, but thats another topic). Mines/panzerfausts won't reliably kill early light armor unless used in mass, and even then it is a hefty muni sink which is not always available. This is why the raketen needs to be as reliable as other AT guns in other departements like aim time and range, without making it a Pak40 clone.

At the same time, i don't want the raketen to be the Überblitzpowered AT rocket launcher that can wreck every light/medium on its own, let alone 2 taking care of pershings and IS2's with merely a couple of volleys.

So to simply sum it up, i find it difficult to find a solution.

It's cheap, use them in pairs.

This is the part that I find a bit problematic for the gameplay aspect. The best way to use raketens seems to be indeed hunter killer groups. Then the intent is to creep up to unsuspecting armor in camo and the aim is to knock it out immediately and then retreat or risk getting your AT gun instagibbed by a random tank shell or lmg / BAR focus fire. Do you think its beneficial to the gameplay when units have to rely on oneshots to have the best impact?

Also I have a serious issue with any mainline units that yield unreliable results. Like the cons for the past years when they sometimes might crit 3 sturmpioneers models on approach and sometimes not get a single hit in before the sturms would force them to retreat. There was no way to predict how the engagement would go sometimes and the effect of the RNG was just ridiculous. I'd say the same about the raketen which sometimes gets killed by the first shot from approaching medium tank or getting killed by a random mortar shell or rocket artillery hit while constantly having to be closer to harms way with its lower range. There's fun RNG like deflections in properly microed tank combat and then there's frustrating RNG like a Panther missing a point blank shot while stationary against a Heavy tank.

I think changing the squad spacing would be a big step forward in making it more desirable to use. The camo aspect is gimmicky imo so that's a more problematic thing to balance to make using/playing against a raketen more enjoyable.

(Writing this brought back all the times when I'd sneak a raketen to an enemy base in crossing the woods with the vet 1 camo movement buff and snipe ambos, arty pieces and whatnot )

I think the raketenwerfer is still salvageable as a unique concept, with a few changes.

increase the crew number to five, maybe with the stock volks.

decrease fire aim time from .375-.25 to .25-.125 (match pak). the long aim time make to easier for vehicle to get away.

decrease setup time to 0 (match pak). similar reason as above.

increase accel/deccel to 4/5 from 2.5/3.5 (pak is 3/4)

increase rotation rate to 90 from 75 (pak = 75)

the raketen is suppose to be a much lighter piece than the pak, but yet in game the pak is faster and more nimble overall.