Volksgrenadiers & Obersoldaten

The connection between these two units is rather sad since to most people's opinions, Volks are just better since they're 5-man, more resilient and cheaper compare to Obers. I don't blame them, since Volks vet up at the same pace as Allies' infantry while Ober come out too late. However, instead of Obers' problem for being coming out too late, I think it's more of Volks' problem, specifically their StG upgrade:

- The double StG44s give Volks more close-range damage while still maintain (If not, actually increase) their long-range DPS. This is actually unfair, even for OKW players since it's pretty much no-brainer action. You don't have to think much (Unless you want 1 squad unupgrade to pick up dropped weapons, but that's pretty much it) since it's just benefit them, they are no disadvantage of doing it. In addition, that upgrade also makes people have the thinking of since Volks are already decent enough to fight/hold ground to even late-game, they don't need other infantry squads which render Obers useless.

- The way people look at Obersoldatens right now is actually quite sad. They think Obers would come out too late, which make them unable to vet up at the same pace as Allies infantry (Which is already vet 2 by the time Obers arrives), so they aren't really a good investment, especially for a AI specialist unit. It's understandable and true, but to a certain extent. The thing with Obers is that they are very powerful since the moment they arrive! Having the best accuracy/target size/weapon profile along with the best LMG in the game (Double the LMG42's DPS, I think, but pretty much very powerful), not to mention the buff where they now have better squad-spacing, Obers from being very good to very, very good! They don't even need veterancy to be good as veteran Allies infantry, they're already better than that!

So now, it comes down to Volks being a little too much for what they're meant to be. Consider they only gain slight buff through vet (Only a total of 20% received accuracy buff is already enough to point out that Volks aren't meant to assault) while also get quite an interesting defensive buff (+20% sight range at vet 4), to be honest, I don't think Volks are supposed to be frontline assault units like Rifleman. Volks are more of a frontline-holding units (More towards defensive than offensive), and to better highlight that, the StGs upgrade right now needs a change (It makes people misconcept Volks. They aren't meant to be Rifleman, they're meant to be more defensive!). There are 2 ways I think would suit best (Note that the point of this change is to weaken Volks' assault capability at long-range, which makes players have to take a second look at Obers for assault purposes):

1. Give them Sturmpioneer version of StGs (Better close-range but way weaker long-range than the Volks one): This way, Volks will actually lost their long-range DPS, and since only 2 models get the Sturm's StG, they won't have the same shock value that Sturmpioneers had. Also, this render their assault capability quite a lot: Lack of long-range damage while close-range damage isn't that good for assaulting means they'll surely lost to Rifleman at mid-range, for example. 

2. Give them 3 MP40s (Assault Grenadiers' version): This is not really the one I would recommend over the upper suggestion, but it's an idea. This way, you will have to decide between making Volks better at holding territory (unupgraded) and making a close-range assault unit (upgraded). Of course, they won't be that good at charging in and definitely can't be as good as Sturm, but by doing this, Volks will lose their long-range DPS, which is what we need, a fair trade-off. And since this upgraded Volks will excel at close-range, you'll definitely needs Obersoldatens to be your long-range assault units if you're desired, can't just stick to Volks anymore since vanilla Volks can't be good at long-range assault at later stage of the game.

Overall, the main purpose of these changes (implement 1 only, obviously) is to make upgrading Volks more of an option, a trade-off, rather than a no-brainer action since it buff Volks' overall performance, while at the same time, give Obers a chance to be call-in. And the only way to do it, it's to make their upgrade package buffing their close-range potential while you'll have to get Obers if you want some true long-range firepower.‎

- The double StG44s give Volks more close-range damage while still maintain (If not, actually increase) their long-range DPS. ‎

Wrong assumption

Wrong assumption

According to Cruzz's DPS calculator, at a range of 35, the Volksgrenadier Kar 98 k deals 1,807 DPS while the Volksgrenadier StG 44 deals 1,973 DPS. The StG 44 is a straight upgrade at any range.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, since it's true for the BAR as well and even most other LMGs, if the squad is not moving. Volks might be slightly overperforming, but in my opinion, the problem lies with Obersoldaten. They're too expensive and too squishy to compete with double LMG Riflemen or Tommies. That might change when WBP hits, though, so we should wait and see.

Obers are overshadoved by cheaper and more effective double LMG units. When ober come out there is vet. 3 LMG unit that will eat Obers for breakfast.

Can someone explain why this unit build so slow and reinforces like phak, for such late end game.

ST44 on VG is a bad implementation because it introduces a weapon with completely different characteristics than it classification (assault rifle) and its counterparts.

V.G. are OP and they are one of the few units that actually reach vet 5.

On the other hand the offenders on the other side of the fence are far more and thus nerfing VG before fixing allied infantry would be bad move imo.

If I had to would implement ST44(and their other solutions) on V.G. differently. I would make the upgrade a 5 single shot St44 upgrade increasing mid and close DPS at the expanse of far bring V.G. slightly lower than riflemen levels.

Then a MU ability to use full auto would be available increasing the mid to close DPS again at the cost of the far DPS (proalby reducing moving speed or requiring to be stationary).

On the other hand Ober are currently not cost efficient. The need a weapon upgrade, have to retreat early take for ages to reinforce while having very pop. All that translates to paying a high upkeep for a unit that will spend most of its time going back and forth to base and reinforcing.

(Imo reinforcement speeds need to be looked at because some units reinforce to fast (hmgs,ostrruppen...) and other to slow (Pgs, Obers...)

Wrong assumption

It does buff their long-range DPS. ‎

According to Cruzz's DPS calculator, at a range of 35, the Volksgrenadier Kar 98 k deals 1,807 DPS while the Volksgrenadier StG 44 deals 1,973 DPS. The StG 44 is a straight upgrade at any range.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, since it's true for the BAR as well and even most other LMGs, if the squad is not moving. Volks might be slightly overperforming, but in my opinion, the problem lies with Obersoldaten. They're too expensive and too squishy to compete with double LMG Riflemen or Tommies. That might change when WBP hits, though, so we should wait and see.

The only thing that makes them seems squishy is their prone to get randomly wiped to indirect-fire, but that's going to change anyways (WBP)! See, this way of thinking is rendering Obers useless! It's understandable, cause Volks are already there to cover up the long-range DPS (Not as good as Obers, but already decent enough to hold to late-game). They needs to get a nerf to long-range DPS when upgrade to trade for an increase in close-range DPS. This way, Volks and Obers will have a better synergy (Close-range units and Long-range units), which then makes Obers see more combat and trust me, Obers are way way better than you think!‎

Obers are overshadoved by cheaper and more effective double LMG units. When ober come out there is vet. 3 LMG unit that will eat Obers for breakfast.

Can someone explain why this unit build so slow and reinforces like phak, for such late end game.

The only double LMGs that can "eat" Obers for breakfast is double M1919s, which gonna get remove when WBP hits. Double Bars/Brens is no where near the power of 1 LMG34, and as long as Obers stay in cover (Duh! That's where all infantries suppose to be!), Obers will shred them to pieces and eat them faster than my dog eats his dinner!

The reason Obers reinforce so long is probably because they're too elite for their own good (Not many can actually see this cause not many commit to get them). I'm find with that, actually, cause they're very good!‎

Yes obers are kinda useless, but its not because Volk are any good.

The double StG44s give Volks more close-range damage while still maintain (If not, actually increase) their long-range DPS. This is actually unfair, even for OKW players since it's pretty much no-brainer action. You don't have to think much (Unless you want 1 squad unupgrade to pick up dropped weapons, but that's pretty much it) since it's just benefit them, they are no disadvantage of doing it. In addition, that upgrade also makes people have the thinking of since Volks are already decent enough to fight/hold ground to even late-game, they don't need other infantry squads which render Obers useless.

Double STGs arnt very good. They are A)outclassed by a single BAR at short (and long) range, B) Outclassed by LMGs at long range, and B.1) Volk lack any good defensive accuracy bonus to effectively close the distance ( Target size @ vet 3: Volk: .81 RM: .59 Tommies @vet 2: .616)

The thing with Obers is that they are very powerful since the moment they arrive!

Technically incorrect they still need to buy their MG34. Plus when they come out it doesnt matter how good they are since they are facing a) 2-3 vet 3 LMG squads, b) crushwells and the like, c) rocket arty.

They don't even need veterancy to be good as veteran Allies infantry, they're already better than that!

Not really. At that point allied inf would have better received accuracy bonuses, more effective HP and with double upgrades better DPS.

RA Obers: .7 RM: .59 Tommies @vet 2: .616

Total DPS @ long
Obers LMG34: 15.08
Obers LMG34: 26.04

RM Vet 3 no wep: 11.5
RM Vet 3 1 BAR: 15.26
RM Vet 3 2 BAR: 19.02
RM Vet 3 1 1919: 21.6
RM Vet 3 2 1919: 31.7

Tom Vet 3 5 men: 18.05
Tom Vet 3 5 men 1 Bren: 24.39
Tom Vet 3 5 men 2 Bren: 30.73

(Not Tommie Calcs might be off due to I dont know how scoped Lee Enf interact)

they're meant to be more defensive!

Then they should be able to, cost effectively defend, which they dont.

1. Give them Sturmpioneer version of StGs (Better close-range but way weaker long-range than the Volks one):

Sturm Pios only have .4 less DPS than Volk STGs at long range. STGs long range performance doesnt matter, unless it gets good buffs, its still going to loose to allied infantry at long range.

Also, this render their assault capability quite a lot: Lack of long-range damage while close-range damage isn't that good for assaulting means they'll surely lost to Rifleman at mid-range, for exampl

Im not too sure what you actually mean here. In your hypothetical whats the point of Volks?

2 ...

They still won't do enough damage and have enough received accuracy to make effective assault troops. Why would I ever want this upgrade? To discourage the current Shock Troop/Para Thomson meta /s

All in all, I dont see why you have an issue with volk currently. You seem to take issue with the fact that their upgrades are a "no brainer." Thats true with all other upgrades in the game. Pssh Cons, Why not? Guard LMGs, Why not? Tommie brens, Why Not? Penial Flame throwers, why not? I guess the only choice for riflemen is if you want them to be AT or AI and if they are AI whether or not you want an upgrade that give a large short and a moderate far range DPS increase or an upgrade that's gives a moderate short and a large far range DPS increase.

I am under the impression that weapon upgrades aren't designed to be a trade off between different possible upgrades, but between upgrades and using muni for mines, grenades or offmaps.

IMO Volks are underperforming at the moment, and their vet nerfs from when shreckblob was in place should be reverted.

V.G. are OP and they are one of the few units that actually reach vet 5.

Derp? How? Their Vet 5 is lacklustre.

In discussing the "no-brainerness" of the StG44 upgrade I'm reminded of the vCoH Panzer Elite, although only possessing one type of infantry, the PzGren, (Falls/LWGF aside) a commander had a myriad of useful upgrades which could very dramatically change their utility. Perhaps it would be interesting to give them more specific upgrades that change their function; but that would run the risk of marginalizing other infantry such as the Panzerfusiliers.

In my opinion, Volksgrendiers, due to their lackluster veterancy, should act like Osttruppen or Conscript (Consider they are cheap as well: 250 MP). They aren't supposed to be assault-heavy units. In early game, they are good since they can be enmass (slightly) and cap many territories while also being a meat shield while Sturm do the damage. Later on into the game, they will be more of meat shield/frontline formers (Similar to Osttruppen) while still be able to hold their ground against charging-in units decently. If you want some real firepower, you need to get Obers. The idea of debuffing their long-range while buffing their long-range through upgrade is to make them receiving an only low buff for defensive purposes only (If they go a lot of close-range units, upgrade your Volks; if they don't, just don't upgrade your Volks). If this can happen then yeah, there'll be changes needed to the timing of Obers, but that's pretty much it. Obers are already great, but if people keep on insisting then yeah, the timing.‎

Obers are fine but they reinforce so damn slow, keeping them off the field for too long. Now that they were nerfed like 2 years ago they don't really need this to hold them back.

I like Obers the way they are. They are the one OKW unit where the vet 4 and 5 really makes a giant difference towards allied infantry when they become HMG and and infantry murderers in one piece. Have to play them carefully at first , they are not meat shields like Volks until they start paying off. I agree with the reinforce time being a bit sluggish, though.

Obers are fine but they reinforce so damn slow, keeping them off the field for too long. Now that they were nerfed like 2 years ago they don't really need this to hold them back.

I like Obers the way they are. They are the one OKW unit where the vet 4 and 5 really makes a giant difference towards allied infantry when they become HMG and and infantry murderers in one piece. Have to play them carefully at first , they are not meat shields like Volks until they start paying off. I agree with the reinforce time being a bit sluggish, though.

Like I have stated, Obers are completely fine as they are! However, the majority do have a point in saying Obers come out a little too late and reinforce a little too long, but that shouldn't be enough to dissuade them from getting Obers. Come out late? They are meant for late-game AI powerhouse, of course they gonna come out later! Reinforce too long? Then don't let them lose models! Keep them behind Volks (Powerful at long-range, remember?) and voila! But then Volks, they are being a little bit too durable for what they cost, especially the upgrade which makes little to no senses. Since Obers fight behind Volks, while don't give Volks more close-range DPS through upgrade so at least, they won't steal all of Obers' kills.‎

Obers are overshadoved by cheaper and more effective double LMG units. When ober come out there is vet. 3 LMG unit that will eat Obers for breakfast.

Can someone explain why this unit build so slow and reinforces like phak, for such late end game.

Actually when Obers come out there is tanks, which they are not designed to fight against.

Hell if anything make Obers choose LMG or Panzerschreck so you don't got AT infantry role limited to Sturms. At least that would justify building them instead of JP4 and not still rely on Rak43 and builders.

Reinforce too long? Then don't let them lose models!

in times of calliOP and lmfao matress even pro players have trouble keeping the squad alive. now, keeping all models alive, thats just plain bs

in times of calliOP and lmfao matress even pro players have trouble keeping the squad alive. now, keeping all models alive, thats just plain bs

It's very easy to dissuade yourself from not getting them since well, reasons... but try to give them a chance, and you'll be surprise! Also, about your response, yes, CalliOP and lmfao matresses are everywhere! But in 1v1, no bloody idiots are going to waste 1 full barrage onto just 1 Ober squad or 1 Ober + 1 Volks squad! Cause that's also just plain BS. And if he actually did barrage then well, he just waste it! Use it to your advantage!‎

Hey Obers are pretty awesome if you glitch them 2 mg34s. But then you have to glitch them mg34s. Otherwise they just don't do a whole lot for their cost.

I actually prefer to avoid stgs sometimes because stgs spread damage more across the squad, whereas bolt action rifle drop models more often. Stgs may have dps, but dropping models is probably way more important. Axis squads can only afford to lose two models before they're in danger of small arms wipes. But they typically have to drop three or four models to accomplish the same.

Most of this is pretty good stuff. I do believe that obers do take to long to reinforce, and because of the veterancy curve and arrival time limit their effectiveness slightly. However when you lose 2 models on a 4 model squad you retreat outright because of fear of losing such an expensive squad to mortar shells/rocket arty. The same cannot be said about 6 man squads like fusiliers and penals. I believe this is what limits obersoldaten. Squad spacing also doesn't mean anything against units in cover. A mortar should just be limited to damaging 2 -3 models max pershot, that way you're punished for not using fully reinforced squads and this will avoid those cheesy 1 shot full squad wipes. This is a topic for another thread though. Also panzerschreck obers sound like a nice addition.

but try to give them a chance, and you'll be surprise!

i have tried them them a bit, also with spec ops doc stgs and they just dont cut it

But in 1v1, no bloody idiots are going to waste 1 full barrage onto just 1 Ober squad

i ususally play 2v2+ and have only recently started to play 1v1, but in my experience it is 100% worth to kill an ober squad with a volley, thats a hefty amount of manpower and munis down the drain for the enemy

I like obers as is, duel obers vs any allie infantry get annihilated