does damaging tanks give too much vet?

hi,

is it just my experience or does damaging tanks give much more vet much faster than damaging inf? volks for example seem to vet slower now, while spios vet much faster. same is true for tanks. last game my pz4 killed inf again and again, but only got vet very slowly

and at the modders: is there a way to change this?

edit:
i phrased that badly: most pure at units, dont gain vet too fast, my concern rather lies with AI units picking up a schreck etc

You get exp based on damage you deal and cost of target you attack.

Infantry isn't valuable, tanks are because fuel is expensive.

It was always like this and there is nothing wrong with it, its logical.

It gives a lot of vet. That´s the reason why the StuG levels up so fast. I wouldn´t say it gives too much vet though. A lot of units would turn useless if it gave them less XP.

Iirc the cheaper the unit the less XP it requires to level up. And XP is given by damage done. Since the usual damage value per shot is 160 damage while infantry models have about 80 health and there are less misses on vehicles, vetting up by damaging vehicles should be more than twice as fast - and rightfully so.

Yes, you receive more veterancy based on the value of the target you are hitting. Since tanks are more valuable, you get more XP. I don't know the exact mechanism behind that (e.g., do you get XP proportional to the target's max HP or not)

However, yes, to me it seems that this is, was and will remain a major enabler for AT blobs until it is fixed:
- Enemy fields a light vehicle -> easy vet for your infantry
- Your vet3 "AT" infantry can now run over the enemy's vet0 infantry.

There probably doesn't exist any "clean" solution to this (i.e., penalize veterancy gained through AT damage). However, user "Myself" once proposed a potential fix to this:
- Radically increase infantry veterancy requirements to match the veterancy gain rate they should have when attacking tanks
- Increase veterancy awarded for attacking infantry (to keep infantry AI gains at the same level)
- Increase veterancy requirements for tanks with AI capabilities (e.g., so that you don't get Vet5 Command Panthers if you manage to run over a squad of conscripts).

As you can see, this requires a cascade of changes. Depending on when you decide to halt this cascade, you reach different trade-offs. If you can think of how to parametrise veterancy exactly, I am sure that somebody will be willing to implement this in a mod.

To give you a task-list:
1) Find all infantry AT squads
2) Find out by how much their veterancy gain should be slowed when they attack tanks
3) Go over to stat.coh2.hu. For every single tank present (doctrinal or non-doctrinal):
- State how much their veterancy gain should be slowed to account for their AI potential (tank canon, flame dots, MGs, crushing)

I was just too lazy to do this, so far

The only problem I see from this is about the Riflemen's vet 3 since they become "terminators" then but they get it from destroying infantry with double BARs either way so...

The other is the OKW's 5 vets which fill up pretty quickly with the Panzershreck, altho it's a bit justified with the Sturms since they're a 4 man squad that's prone to getting wiped pretty easily compared to let's say the volks.

It was always like this and there is nothing wrong with it, its logical.

not always! in vcoh you got zero xp for damaging, therefore only damaging a tank gave no xp.

yes, i may be logical in that sense, but there are other logics where it makes no sense, and besides, being logical doesnt mean being good for the game

A lot of units would turn useless if it gave them less XP.

well, one then would need to lower the amount for vet for dedicated AT tanks. i phrased my first post baldy, edited it

However, yes, to me it seems that this is, was and will remain a major enabler for AT blobs until it is fixed

that was my thought aswell, whether it be for the volks blob or the re spam or whatever, because even if the enemy kites very well, you still get loads of xp.

the fix "myself" proposed (that username ) seems to be a rather complicated of toning down vet against tanks and decreasing the amount of vet needed for dedicated AT units

not always! in vcoh you got zero xp for damaging, therefore only damaging a tank gave no xp.

We're not talking vcoh here...

yes, i may be logical in that sense, but there are other logics where it makes no sense, and besides, being logical doesnt mean being good for the game

As long as its logical for balance, it does.

You get exp based on damage you deal and cost of target you attack.

Infantry isn't valuable, tanks are because fuel is expensive.

It was always like this and there is nothing wrong with it, its logical.

true that, once i reached vet 4 luchs in 14 mins because i was mostly shooting at AA HT and not rifles

and at the modders: is there a way to change this?

Yeah, what you could do is use make it so that the tank has much lower health. For example, you can give them 160 health (normal is 640 for a medium tank). Then use squad modifiers so that they take 75% less damage from weapons (40 damage instead of 160). It'll still take the same number of hits to kill and display the health bar the same way, but Veterancy gain will be much slower for attackers. You'd also need to lower the repair rates (not sure if possible via target tables, or if it's universal) so they don't repair the tanks in 5 seconds though.

Yes, you receive more veterancy based on the value of the target you are hitting. Since tanks are more valuable, you get more XP. I don't know the exact mechanism behind that (e.g., do you get XP proportional to the target's max HP or not)

However, yes, to me it seems that this is, was and will remain a major enabler for AT blobs until it is fixed:
- Enemy fields a light vehicle -> easy vet for your infantry
- Your vet3 "AT" infantry can now run over the enemy's vet0 infantry.

Damaging or killing 240mp LV like kubel gains as much experience as damaging or wiping an 240mp infantry squad. The real reason why LVs seem to feed infantry to opponents is that they are often used as damage sponges, couse they are fast and easy to repair. 222 and m3a1 are good examples of that. Yet, they don't have to be used in such matter, so it's not true that fighting with LVs feeds vet. Many players organise their whole early game strategy around avoiding being shot at and it works great.

We're not talking vcoh here...

"always" includes the whole coh series imo

As long as its logical for balance, it does.

which you didnt prove in any way. congratulations!

true that, once i reached vet 4 luchs in 14 mins because i was mostly shooting at AA HT and not rifles

pretty good example
according to katiof, this is balanced...

Yeah, what you could do is use make it so that the tank has much lower health.

nope, that wouldnt work, because of light vehicles that can be penetrated by small arms

most pure at units, dont gain vet too fast, my concern rather lies with AI units picking up a schreck etc

I don't think this is such a problem now that volks don't have shrecks. For rifle/tommy squads they need the double upgrade to be effective, so even with vet their 3 rifles aren't that threatening to infantry. For strums/pgrens it's fine, they are easily wiped and also lose much of their AI potential when upgrading.

Squads picking up dropped panzershrecks is not common, plus when it does occur it is only giving the vet boost to that one squad, so overall not a big deal.

nope, that wouldnt work, because of light vehicles that can be penetrated by small arms

He's talking about tanks. Also Target Tables can be used to fix that anyway.

attacking veteren units gives more vet also. forexample if you build a stug and attack a vet0 sherman you get certain xp.. however if the sherman is vet3. you get 1.3x the vet from the hit instead of attacking a vet0 unit.

This was a comeback mechanic introduced in coh2 and its there since the early beta.

so basically a vet3 croc is like a veterency pinata for axis units. while lets say a tigerace or vet3 p4 will give a lot of vet to allied units. Add this to cmdr upgrade for brits, thats why brit tanks vet up crazy fast.

This is true for inf also.. attacking vet3 axis inf will make the allied inf vet faster.

Its kinda sad that ur well preserved vet units are actually helping the enemy vet up faster.

attacking veteren units gives more vet also. forexample if you build a stug and attack a vet0 sherman you get certain xp.. however if the sherman is vet3. you get 1.3x the vet from the hit instead of attacking a vet0 unit.

Incorrect.
You get 1.2 modifier for each vet star.

So vet0 going for vet3 gets ~1.6 exp value.

Yes, you receive more veterancy based on the value of the target you are hitting. Since tanks are more valuable, you get more XP. I don't know the exact mechanism behind that (e.g., do you get XP proportional to the target's max HP or not)

However, yes, to me it seems that this is, was and will remain a major enabler for AT blobs until it is fixed:
- Enemy fields a light vehicle -> easy vet for your infantry
- Your vet3 "AT" infantry can now run over the enemy's vet0 infantry.

There probably doesn't exist any "clean" solution to this (i.e., penalize veterancy gained through AT damage). However, user "Myself" once proposed a potential fix to this:
- Radically increase infantry veterancy requirements to match the veterancy gain rate they should have when attacking tanks
- Increase veterancy awarded for attacking infantry (to keep infantry AI gains at the same level)
- Increase veterancy requirements for tanks with AI capabilities (e.g., so that you don't get Vet5 Command Panthers if you manage to run over a squad of conscripts).

As you can see, this requires a cascade of changes. Depending on when you decide to halt this cascade, you reach different trade-offs. If you can think of how to parametrise veterancy exactly, I am sure that somebody will be willing to implement this in a mod.

To give you a task-list:
1) Find all infantry AT squads
2) Find out by how much their veterancy gain should be slowed when they attack tanks
3) Go over to stat.coh2.hu. For every single tank present (doctrinal or non-doctrinal):
- State how much their veterancy gain should be slowed to account for their AI potential (tank canon, flame dots, MGs, crushing)

I was just too lazy to do this, so far

How about we make a dual-vet system like PE in vCOH.
Infantry can rather choose to upgrade Offence or Defense, or AT/AI ability.

for example: Weapon Reload time and aim time buff is not so useful for K98, G43 or M1, but is quite deadly when using Panzerschreck or M9 Bazooka. So this would be AT ability upgrade for Infantry.
On the other hand, accuracy and RoF is good for AI, buff them as AI upgrade

another good example why this is a problem are pzgrens in my opinion. they vet good with schrecks, but without they vet very slowly in my experience, making them ineffective at an AI role

He's talking about tanks. Also Target Tables can be used to fix that anyway.

if you change the hp of tanks,you need to change the hp of light vehicles aswell, and then normal rifles do suddenly much more damage against them

attacking veteren units gives more vet also.
Its kinda sad that ur well preserved vet units are actually helping the enemy vet up faster.

wow, i play coh2 since the beginnign and i didnt know that. what a stupid design idea! does that mean that fighting against a vet 5 okw unit as vet0 gives you ~250% vet (with katiofs numbers)??

How about we make a dual-vet system like PE in vCOH.
Infantry can rather choose to upgrade Offence or Defense, or AT/AI ability.

honestly, i dont want to change the vet system that dramatically

How about we make a dual-vet system like PE in vCOH.
Infantry can rather choose to upgrade Offence or Defense, or AT/AI ability.

for example: Weapon Reload time and aim time buff is not so useful for K98, G43 or M1, but is quite deadly when using Panzerschreck or M9 Bazooka. So this would be AT ability upgrade for Infantry.
On the other hand, accuracy and RoF is good for AI, buff them as AI upgrade

This sounds like a good idea, independent of the power-vetting feature.

However, given that AT guns help units over-vet, I would play USF as follows:
- The moment I spot the first enemy vehicle, I kit all my riflemen with 1 bazooka
- Keep the vehicle alive for as long as possible to leech veterancy
- Drop all veterancy into the AI department
- Roflstomp enemy vet1-2 infantry

another good example why this is a problem are pzgrens in my opinion. they vet good with schrecks, but without they vet very slowly in my experience, making them ineffective at an AI role

Generally, yes, I would agree with you. However, ever since the last patch they got the god-nade, which really helps with power-vetting.

fighting against a vet 5 okw unit as vet0 gives you ~250% vet (with katiofs numbers)??

General :

Attacking a veteran unit will now reward 1.2x its base experience value per level of veterancy. In other words, attacking a level 3 veteran unit will award 1.6x more experience to better reflect their in-game value.

I dont know if this works for vet4 or vet5 tho

General :

Attacking a veteran unit will now reward 1.2x its base experience value per level of veterancy. In other words, attacking a level 3 veteran unit will award 1.6x more experience to better reflect their in-game value.

I dont know if this works for vet4 or vet5 tho

I've seen that edit!

Took me much longer to find the change, didn't expected it to be so ancient.

OKW vet5 units should give 2x the exp.