Relic: Week 1 Update to the Balance Mod

Not liking the Sturm change to shrek. With the possible exception of USF every other faction needs to invest in AT guns in most instances and you're punished if you don't. Not seeing why OKW should be any different. They should have the same problem the other factions do, not a all in T0-T1 solution to armour. Granted Sturms can't be blobbed to the extent volks could but giving the ability for sturms to fast track vet and gain quick repair times seems like too much utility for a single unit. Maybe a solution would be to seriously nerf the AI of sturms if they have the shrek upgrade.

I'm also not liking the MG changes to OKW. Suppression + snare + shrek + AT gun buff is too much and its all in T0-T1. Lose the snare entirely (or possibly give to obers to make light-medium vehicles viable against OKW) or lose the shreks entirely. OKW should need to rely on their own AT gun and it should be on par with the other factions except in one area (range, damage, arc) to compensate for it's ability to retreat.

I'm liking most other changes and overall feels like a great improvement. Just seems like OKW need a rework as simply put they have a non doctrinal answer to everything which no other faction has to the same extent.

More like pseudo-science snake oil. Tell us how a goliath would get close to a bofors emplacement?

Wehrmacht teammate drops smoke to cover the advance.

Each and every of these solutions is by leaps and bounds more reasonable than the Sturmpocalypse.

If they do go ahead with the Sturmpioneers, they SERIOUSLY need to consider reworking their veterancy and adjusting the MP cost. Otherwise it's going to be insane; even for a balance mod.

Sturmpioneers are NOT squishy at all

They feel squishy because they don't get Vet; currently.

They start off with 87% received accuracy at Vet0, and move on to 51% received accuracy at Vet4. Vet3 "terminator" Riflemen have 59% received accuracy at Vet3.

This means that Sturmpioneer get 15% received accuracy bonus ON TOP of Vet3 Riflemen.

You are going to LOVE those snipes

When a SP reaches Vet5, they get a cumulative 68% accuracy bonus. Assuming a target size of 20 (most medium tanks), SP will have 100% far accuracy vs enemy tanks that happen to cross their tanks. Fun!

On top of that, you will have 3 models free dishing out that Schreck-vetted AI power and spamming stun grenades.

Sturmpioneers are just another T0 unit; what changes really?

The reason that nobody ever builds more than 2 Sturmpioneers is because they have very little combat utility the moment the first light hits the field. If you've spammed 4 Sturmpioneers, you are probably going to get destroyed by the first m20. With Screck Sturms, why would you ever open your games with anything but SPs?

The main reason why schreck blobs feel so powerful is because their host is a T0 unit. This means that you can freely spam that T0 unit (Volks) without having to worry of any consequences that follows; the game has got your back, when you need it (panzerschreck upgrade).

For those of you that don't know, Panzergrenadier blobs are also effective. However it is very difficult to achieve that critical mass. This is because by the time Panzergrenadiers become available, you already had to spend a crap-ton of manpower on anti-infantry stuff. You CAN'T afford to start spamming 340 PGrens on top of what you've spent; you need to tech up and start tapping on your fuel reserves.

What we are going to see with SPs is a meta reversal. Nobody sane is going to bother with Volks until they get T1/T2 up (Volks don't have access to nades/fausts before that) -- maybe one single squad for capping.

If OKW MUST have schrecks, they should not get it on a T0 unit. It can be Obersoldaten, or it can be a completely different unit on another tier.

Lots of good bits here. I was hoping more players would see it so I am giving it my +1

If shrecks are back, faust needs to be removed.
If shrecks are gonna be on SP, they need to rework their veterancy. Same thing happened with Volks (basically replacing accuracy buff for cooldown).

I think a very important part of whether the Schreck on Sturmpios is going to work might be the repair kit. To prevent spamming Schrecks as a no brainer the player could be forced to make a choice: Either repair kit OR Schreck. Spamming repair Sturmpios + Schreck could possibly be a bit too much.

People would get the upgrade for the sweeper, not for the repair. Cause you can get easily vet2 with shrecks, you would get the extra repairs anyway.

So if Penals are no longer getting the Assault Package, could Conscripts get a non-doctrinal PPSh upgrade? Or even DP-28s?

So if Penals are no longer getting the Assault Package, could Conscripts get a non-doctrinal PPSh upgrade? Or even DP-28s?

Following Relic wisdom, we'd see a PPSH upgrade put onto engineers...

It's nice that OKW are getting some form of infantry-based AT back, but the Sturmpioneer doesn't seem like a good option choice since they will now be overburdened with too much utility. Sturmpioneers already are close combat infantry, repairers, salvagers, mine sweepers, can plant mines and lay barbed wire and fortifications. Throw in Panzershreks on top of that and it's too much for a single squad. I assume it's going to be a single Panzershrek, which isn't enough to really achieve much. The single Panzer Shrek worked (And then was a problem) on Volks because you would get 3-4 of them and were easily spammable until critical mass because Volks are cheap, durable 5 man squads, whilst Shreks wasn't much of a damage nerf against infantry because of how often they would wipe a model. (which is now nerfed)

Giving Sturmpioneers a single Shrek is going to be underwhelming, they're an expensive and fragile squad for a single Shrek, dealing with Light vehicles in the mid game isn't neccesarily a problem because of Panzerfausts on Volks for the snare combined and the buffed Raketen is strong, (maybe just needs more durable crew), just like Wehrmacht deal with light vehicles with Grenadier Fausts and Paks. Then a single shrek on Sturmpioners won't have enough firepower for the cost and durability to scale into late game against tank destroyers and medium tanks. Alternatively, giving Sturmpioneers double shreks would probably be too potent for a 300mp squad with all that utility.

I think a much better implementation would be to give Obersoldaten the option to upgrade to Double Shreks instead of the LMG. They are expensive 4 man squads, that would lack anti infantry with no LMG and only 2 rifles, so they're certainly not going to be over powered, just like Panzer Grenadiers, but it'll give OKW a mobile and yet potent Infantry Based AT to deal with the newly buffed Allied Tank Destroyers, which is where OKW can suffer from without Shreks. It could even be a good idea to move Obers onto the Battlegroup HQ, but then lock the LMG upgrade behind the Panzer Headquarters. That way the double Shreks would be accessible sooner and would give more flexibility in terms of unit compositions and strategy.

Ultimately, giving a Shrek to Sturmpioneers will be piling on far too much utility for a single squad, compared to Obers which are a one dimensional unit that would definitely benefit from the utility, whilst providing a platform with double Shreks that would be better balanced and have better scaling against Allied Tank Destroyers.

+1 and read in your voice.
AHH THAT AUSSIE ACCENT

As a casual observation no one seems to realise that to upgrade Volk STG for all the squads, as well as Shrek's for 1-2 sturms is going to be expensive munitions wise, especially when you are expending fausts/grenades/mines.

Maybe increase the cost of OKW upgrades by 10-20 to force some decisions? IE The Player must choose between increasing his AI or AT by choosing each respective upgrade.

Proposal
Volk STG package costs 75 Muni instead of 60
Shreks for Sturms are 100 Munitions instead of 90.
Alternative sturm upgrade: 140 Munitions for X2 Shrek (which will dramatically decrease AI effectiveness)

Forcing the player to choose between minesweepers over shreks would also be interesting, by punishing those who attempt to spam shreks on 2-3 sturms by having no mine detection.

I still think any Shrek upgrade should be locked behind two trucks for OKW, to make racketten/Faust combo early game important.

Overall I like the changes, but we will need to see how things go.

Urgh, we're going to have Volks mixed with SturmPios blobs instead.

Volks with snare AND antiinfantry update and Volks with AT is going to blob everything away again :/

How is that any different than Rifle+Bar mixed with RE+zooka?

Rather not give schrecks to OKW at all considering they do fine without it so far in the mod. Wouldn't get too similar to OST. Besides, OKW has non-doctrinal light tank hunter via puma.

Relic clearly had stats showing that OKW needed schrek back or else they wouldn't have changed it and neither would miragefla for that matter, whose changes preempted this. I mean many intelligent people were predicting this would happen from the get go. So perhaps all the misery is because you won't be able to spam cheap tanks as easily?

Im sure if the volks snare needs to go, then relic will see to it. But for now its a trial.

Wehrmacht teammate drops smoke to cover the advance.

I guess so. If only the average wehr teammate were that cooperative though. Most randoms don't even build medics for themselves, forcing okw to have to back tech at great expense.

As a casual observation no one seems to realise that to upgrade Volk STG for all the squads, as well as Shrek's for 1-2 sturms is going to be expensive munitions wise, especially when you are expending fausts/grenades/mines.

Maybe increase the cost of OKW upgrades by 10-20 to force some decisions? IE The Player must choose between increasing his AI or AT by choosing each respective upgrade.

Proposal
Volk STG package costs 75 Muni instead of 60
Shreks for Sturms are 100 Munitions instead of 90.
Alternative sturm upgrade: 140 Munitions for X2 Shrek (which will dramatically decrease AI effectiveness)

Forcing the player to choose between minesweepers over shreks would also be interesting, by punishing those who attempt to spam shreks on 2-3 sturms by having no mine detection.

I still think any Shrek upgrade should be locked behind two trucks for OKW, to make racketten/Faust combo early game important.

Overall I like the changes, but we will need to see how things go.

+1 people don't understand the danger of the sturm with only 1 sherck they need 2 so even ostruppen can kill them

Relic clearly had stats showing that OKW needed schrek back or else they wouldn't have changed it and neither would miragefla for that matter, whose changes preempted this. I mean many intelligent people were predicting this would happen from the get go. So perhaps all the misery is because you won't be able to spam cheap tanks as easily?

Im sure if the volks snare needs to go, then relic will see to it. But for now its a trial.

With T0 Panzershrecks, Fausts, and Raketenwerfer...there won't be any stage of the game where its possible to field a Vehicle on the Allied side.

This is going to promote more 'Cancer Commander' use (even though its the only viable British Commander), because a British player won't be able to rely on the UC, AEC or Tanks.

Jump back to quoted post6 May 2016, 09:22 AMCaptain_Frog

Yo where my OKW boys at smash that like button fam real volk hours get dat shrek in the trunk

Let the fury of the mighty OKW lead us to VICTORY

Oberkommando Win! okwokwokw

I think that sturmpios with shreks are fine, but Relic need to tune some things:
1. Do not allow minsweeper and shrek in one squad. Why? Cause flanking with shreks will be so much easier - shreks will help with bunkers, sweeper will help with mines. So, Allies will stuck with only one counter - units. This is not good.
2. Veterancy requirements and bonuses needs to be higher.
3. Remove faust from volks. OKW can't have all things in T0-T2 - Raketenwerfer, faust, shrek, Puma and Luchs. Isn't this too much for early game?

Obers are simply much too expensive (both mp and popcap wise) to perform such a role even if they could be a battlegroup unit (otherwise they'd simply arrive too late), and Sturms are a poor choice for the very reasons you've outlined. Ideally, OKW should receive an additional dedicated infantry AT unit, but I don't see that happening. Shucks.

I dunno about that, sure they cost a lot more than PGrens but they also have better durability because of their received accuracy bonuses.

Why not give shreks to fusiliers? Now that volks have snares, the advantage of having a snare unit by getting fusiliers vanishes and they become less worthwhile to get. Replace their snares with shreks.

...

Pzshreks to 6 man 280mp squad with decent AI? No, thanks.

Hey Guys, you remember how I was raving about the Assault gun coming out of the half track and not offmap?

Well it actually does that now... I think thats OP

I guess so. If only the average wehr teammate were that cooperative though. Most randoms don't even build medics for themselves, forcing okw to have to back tech at great expense.

I kinda feel like that would be a pretty uncarryable game in general anyway