Are grenadiers worth their 30 MP reinforce cost?

I can tell because I actually play the game.

Wrong, the 4 men squads have nothing to do with them being elite or not, its to support army design of combined arms, you can NOT rely on grens alone, you need supporting units, either support weapons or command bunker/251 for map presence.

Grens never were supposed to be superior to any other infantry squad, so your elite argument desn't apply, they are supposed to be equal to cons and surpass them with weapon upgrades. Vs brits and UKF you have to use support units, just like UKF needs to do to support tommies.

Of course a squad of 4 man indicates a more elite status than a comparatible squad of 6 men: A gren entity has a better performance per entity (more average dps per and better rec_acc) than the average entity of a conscript.

You are right in the sense that the 4-man squad as a whole is of course not necessarily "better" - but the individual entity is. From the game design point of view it's just a different kind of approach: fewer men but more damage per men & better protection vs more men but less damage per men & worse protection.

In general, this approach doesnt sound that bad and actually captures pretty well the "lore" of the CoH setting. However, we all know that in game-reality shows us again and again that a 4-man squad has a huge problem which isnt incorporated in this approach: the higher wipe chance.

double post

UKF have 5 man upgrade.

Hardly any streamer uses it, regardless of rank.

Can anyone explain to me why its not an issue for UKF?

People use 5th man upgrade with UKF, its just not mandatory for all strat. Just because vet3 bonuses and weapon upgrades are enough for someone to handle axis, doesnt mean 4men squads wont get wiped out pretty often.

5men squad with Lmg42 upgrade = having little obers squads after 4 minutes. Now maybe it is what you want but I hope not relic balance team.

Close this shit thread. Doesnt worth reply

Grens suffer from survivability

Close this shit thread. Doesnt worth reply

>replies

5men squad with Lmg42 upgrade = having little obers squads after 4 minutes. Now maybe it is what you want but I hope not relic balance team.

You know you can change a squad from 4 men to 5 and at the same time balance the dps output of it, right ? Noone wants obers as mainline infantry, just a decent squad that can survive and hold fights for longer than 10 secs, and doesn't suffer as much dps dropoff for each model lost. If by design, Wehrmacht is supposed to have a hard early game, like katitof tries to explain (ways of the katitof are hard to decypher, between all the bullshit he spreads -try playing some 1v1 as WM, ty, or even better, try playing just a bit-), then the lategame HAS TO BE good enough to make up for it. Right now, it is not the case.

That's the exact same concept as a carry in Moba games: you start rather weak, then scaling and time flowing makes you better in the long term, i could live with that. But right now, WM lategame is hardly better than anything the 3 (!) allies faction have. Okay USF is probably worse, but the faction reaches its peak so much earlier that it doesn't mean anything if they are say 10-15% worst in the lategame. It's all about the snowball effect that is provided by a ridiculous early - early to mid dominance. Oddly enough, the only allies faction that provides somewhat balanced games with WM is brits, who struggle early game too. Coincidence ? I hardly believe so.

You forgot to rise the price to 280 at least or cut the damage by 25%.

Or buff con DPS by 30% to compensate?

edit: oh god, why are you even here? You're a full time comp stomper, balance is of no concern for you because you can just switch difficulty of AI...

Right, you have a point there, but I'll counter you with the argument that I'm still playing the game and face/play against/with the unit as well here, not playing on the high, PvP levels as you supposedly doesn't mean I have no experience with the unit at question here, meaning I can give at least a simple suggestion. But yes, their durability needs to improve, I think we can all agree on that, and to compensate maybe the ideas you suggested, 280 for a well trained and well equipped German unit as the description states isn't quite bad.

Right, you have a point there, but I'll counter you with the argument that I'm still playing the game and face/play against/with the unit as well here, not playing on the high, PvP levels as you supposedly doesn't mean I have no experience with the unit at question here, meaning I can give at least a simple suggestion. But yes, their durability needs to improve, I think we can all agree on that, and to compensate maybe the ideas you suggested, 280 for a well trained and well equipped German unit as the description states isn't quite bad.

That is a bad excuse for commenting on balance while being 100% detached from multiplayer.

Sorry, but it doesn't matter if you have experience with the unit or not if your opponent can't micro, because its AI.

That is a bad excuse for commenting on balance while being 100% detached from multiplayer.

That's ironic.

That is a bad excuse for commenting on balance while being 100% detached from multiplayer.

Sorry, but it doesn't matter if you have experience with the unit or not if your opponent can't micro, because its AI.

Joke of the year. Player card pls katitof

That's ironic.

Half ironic.
I'm back to 1s...

Okay now i know he's definitely trolling

That's the worst excuse ever!
Grens need less to fully reinforce only when they can die less frequently than other Core infantry
In fact no, Grens aren't more versatile than Volks, Rifles or Tommies..
They will suffer casualty in first salvo of changing fire

Considering that there are less grenadiers on the field in the first place, they are certainly going to die a lot less than their opponent on average. (The losing player tends to bleed more manpower reinforcing. That's why they are losing.)

The LMG upgrade lets grenadiers burst down models really fast too you know. Having all that DPS concentrated on one guy also means that taking losses in a fight isn't as big of a deal as it is with allied infantry.

You guys are so focused on "Waaah Grenadiers aren't as good as Riflemen, why are they more expensive to reinforce" you're ignoring how their reinforcement cost fits into their role in the game and the rest of their faction. The Ostheer economy is very different from the American one or the Brit one.

I see some shit suggestions here.
Some "ostheer needs tech cost for grenades"
-that's the cost of T2 tech in the HQ.

I for one don't appreciate the suggestion that Ostheer is just weaker in the early game and that's the way they should be. It's rather shitty to have to stare at my screen for the first fifteen minutes clenching my butthole so I don't shit myself and microing at 200 apm just to stay alive against an aggressive USF or Soviet opponent. Sure, I can do it, but I don't want to die of a heart attack at my young age.

Katitof(Dullahan?) said that Ostheer relies on their support weapons to win. While that may be true for strats that Hans uses where he gets 3 PaK guns, 2 Stug Es and waits for a tiger, it isn't always the case. If Ostheer "relied" on their support weapons you'd see no more than two grens followed by 2-3 MG42s, a couple of mortars, and four PaK guns. Like all factions and strategies (except noobs who spam MGs in 300popcap games with no VPs), support weapons are there for support. Your MG42 supports your grenadiers. Your grenadiers don't support the MG42.

Are Grenadiers worth their 30mp reinforcement cost? With four men they are. The problem against hyper aggressive USF play is that, often times, you don't have munitions to spend on LMG42s. You've got to put down a teller mine, get a med bunker up, and have enough muni in the bank for a faust or two. You've got to keep a grenadier close to your sniper so the M20 or T70 doesn't chase it down and kill it. The Grenadier - conscript matchup is balanced. The issue against Riflemen is that grenadiers always lose in equal cover/health situations above a range of 24m.

The short answer is that the 30mp cost is fine, it's just difficult to justify their performance w/out LMG42s. Adding a 5th man at T3 or T4 won't really help the struggle in the early/mid game; that's a wider issue based on faction design and the abilities of the allied factions.

The LMG upgrade lets grenadiers burst down models really fast too you know. Having all that DPS concentrated on one guy also means that taking losses in a fight isn't as big of a deal as it is with allied infantry.

Because yeah of course, losing a model in a squad of 4 men isn't as big of a deal as losing a model in a squad of 5 or 6. Captain Nonsense ? When you lose 1 guy in a gren squad, you lose 25% dps, then 33%, then you retreat because you can't afford to lose the squad or it is gg. While having 5 men squads allows your squads to fight longer (obvious i know), have more dps in the long run (even if both squads do the same damage when they are full health/models), and is far less punishing for a mistake. That's exactly like Gbpirate explains: where allies are more micro intensive in the late stage of the game (because more squads and generally more units to handle), WM is terrible in the early. One unchecked mine, one grenade, one lucky squad wipe on the retreat can spell doom for the whole game. I already battled in another thread on this exact matter, and even uploaded couple replays of a US player losing 3-4 squads at the 15th min mark, and still fighting tooth and nail until the 45th mark, where WM finally won (and these were not casual players' 1v1s). I have yet to witness a WM player losing even 2 squads at the 15th mark, being able to fight toe to toe versus USF until 40 minutes into the game, let alone 4 squads. But as usual, i'm being told that i know shit, and holy grail holder noobitof pushes his allies agenda for another 500 posts.

There is nothing wrong with grenadiers. I always try to have two in my force composition as support units, because that is what they are. They are not meant to be as potent as mainline infantry of other factions, due to the fact that Ostheer is a combined arms faction that must rely on its support armor and vehicles to be its backbone.

1 MG42 + 1 Sniper + 2 grens can easily deal with the mainline troops of any other faction if you use them well. Use the Mg42 to suppress enemy infantry and make it easier to deal damage with your grenadiers without taking damage in return. Use the sniper to snipe enemies that are unsuppressed so your grenadiers can deal with them more effectively as they close. Use the grenadiers passively as well to snare enemy light vehicles that arrive.

Half ironic.
I'm back to 1s...

HOLY...

Wait...

Holy shiet!

You installed the game!!

Bois, Katitof has finaly started playing the game, now we can give him some credit.