Are grenadiers worth their 30 MP reinforce cost?

Seeing how they get shat on by all the other equivalent units? And require 60 muni to be even remotely useful? AND REQUIRE TECHING TO ACTUALLY BUILD THEM

I would say they are fine.

They are a bit less cost effective and harder to blob than most of the other infantry, yet I think Ostheer is balanced more around effective support weapons rather than cost effective infantry.

In the end that evens out.

Effective support teams who get wiped by pack blobs and sim city buildings.

The equivalent unit to grens are cons and cons hardly walk over them.

Costwise yes, and somewhat true. But you are sending them against USF/UKF as well.

Grenadiers are probably the best balanced mainline infantry. The only 'issue' is that the MG upgrade is a no-brainer rather than a meaningful choice (unless you have access to G43s), but that is somewhat ameliorated by the faction having a lot of other uses for munitions early on.

In any case, if there is a problem at all it's other factions' squads being too good rather than grens being weak, but frankly I don't think it's so.

For a mainline infantry they get a bit to quickly 1 shotted. would really love to see +1 squadmember upgrade.

Effective support teams who get wiped by pack blobs and sim city buildings.

Partly true. Though that´s more a problem of the cancer commander and cancer emplacements rather than the Ostheer support weapons. Versus the British and US the Ostheer Sniper is pretty effective (which I somewhat count as a support unit).

You pay more because you reinforce less.

If we assume that everyone reinforces from 1 man left in the squad, (And all units follow the traditional reinforcement formula because I haven't memorized this shit.)


Grenadiers reinforce 3 times for 30 mp each = 90 manpower

Rifles reinforce 4 men for 28 mp each = 112 mp

Tommies reinforce 4 men for 28 mp each = 112 mp (They are marginally more efficient if they don't get 5 man thanks to the cost reduction forever ago)

Conscripts reinforce 5 men for 20 mp each = 100 mp.

Volksgrenadiers reinforce 4 men for 25 mp each = 100 mp.

You also have to consider how much each faction is reinforcing. Ostheer usually is support weapon heavy, which don't need to be reinforced as often compared to infantry. And when you are choosing a build order you need to consider how badly manpower bleed will hurt you. Going for a 4x Grenadier build? Then you better be really careful to avoid big losses. Additionally, the nature of LMG's means most of your DPS is concentrated on one model meaning that losing models isn't nearly as detrimental to combat effectiveness as it is for other units.

Grenadiers are probably the best balanced mainline infantry. The only 'issue' is that the MG upgrade is a no-brainer rather than a meaningful choice (unless you have access to G43s), but that is somewhat ameliorated by the faction having a lot of other uses for munitions early on.

All weapon upgrades are pretty much no brainers. Except for AT ones of course. It's a matter of prioritizing your munitions or choosing between multiple options. (I.e paratroopers picking between thompsons or lmg's) However unlike say Riflemen or Tommies, Ostheer doesn't have to tech consciously towards their weapon upgrades and pick them up manually. This is why you see a lot of players neglect weapon upgrades as USF or UKF, because they forget to buy them.

their reinforcement cost is way too high for their survivability

their reinforcement cost is way too high for their survivability

On per model basis they have higher survivability then rifles.
They happen to cost slightly more then rifles on per model basis.

Math checks out.

On per model basis they have higher survivability then rifles.
They happen to cost slightly more then rifles on per model basis.

Math checks out.

Vet3 does not agree.

On per model basis they have higher survivability then rifles.
They happen to cost slightly more then rifles on per model basis.

Math checks out.

i dont know shit abou maths, but since models get aimed randomly, wouldnt mean that its more likely to drop a model in one volley (for example) due the chances to hit the same model are 1/4 for grens instead of 1/5, 1/6?

At vet 3 they are pretty damn good, easy to A move and mow down units with ease.

rifle nade wiping vickers/6pounders, free MG and panzerfaust for a 240 base squad. Really when you are feeding them enough muni they are the best trading inf in the game, this is why they got spammed so hard and we had 7-8 grens into double pak for the best part of 6 months with CAS doctrine.

Make tommies a gren clone and I would be more than happy

i dont know shit abou maths, but since models get aimed randomly, wouldnt mean that its more likely to drop a model in one volley (for example) due the chances to hit the same model are 1/4 for grens instead of 1/5, 1/6?

That depends on weapon you go up against.
Rifles can't down a model in a single volley.
Cons can, but they are shit at their rifles, so they likely won't.

Cons, pfussies and 5 man tommies are the only squads that actually can snipe model with initial volley, but odds are hilariously low for that.

That depends on weapon you go up against.
Rifles can't down a model in a single volley.
Cons can, but they are shit at their rifles, so they likely won't.

Cons, pfussies and 5 man tommies are the only squads that actually can snipe model with initial volley, but odds are hilariously low for that.

maybe im unlucky then, from my subjective experience it happends quite often to lose a gren model after 1-2volleys, more likely than with 5+ squads. but math cant be wrong i guess

It can occur more often if you go around corners/los blockers as the first model to appear gets focused as opposed to normal, frontal approach, where all models come in range at same time.

Plus, infantry are rarely at 100% health across the entire squad.

Those random shots, near misses from explosions, that moment where a few guys ran through some fire, etc, quickly change the possible outcomes of any engagement.

while I do think the grenadier is a bit on the fragile size, their upgrade sort of make up for it. The USF and sov might have bigger squad size, but it feels like they bleed significantly more as well. Even a USF or SOV victory is going to end with them having more losses than the wehr or even okw.

I also prefer to buff the gren's received accuracy bonus or squad spacing before turning them into 5 men. Even the 4 men tommies doesn't have that much problem with squad wipe like the grenadier.

You pay more because you reinforce less.

If we assume that everyone reinforces from 1 man left in the squad, (And all units follow the traditional reinforcement formula because I haven't memorized this shit.)


Grenadiers reinforce 3 times for 30 mp each = 90 manpower

Rifles reinforce 4 men for 28 mp each = 112 mp

Tommies reinforce 4 men for 28 mp each = 112 mp (They are marginally more efficient if they don't get 5 man thanks to the cost reduction forever ago)

Conscripts reinforce 5 men for 20 mp each = 100 mp.

Volksgrenadiers reinforce 4 men for 25 mp each = 100 mp.

You also have to consider how much each faction is reinforcing. Ostheer usually is support weapon heavy, which don't need to be reinforced as often compared to infantry. And when you are choosing a build order you need to consider how badly manpower bleed will hurt you. Going for a 4x Grenadier build? Then you better be really careful to avoid big losses. Additionally, the nature of LMG's means most of your DPS is concentrated on one model meaning that losing models isn't nearly as detrimental to combat effectiveness as it is for other units.





All weapon upgrades are pretty much no brainers. Except for AT ones of course. It's a matter of prioritizing your munitions or choosing between multiple options. (I.e paratroopers picking between thompsons or lmg's) However unlike say Riflemen or Tommies, Ostheer doesn't have to tech consciously towards their weapon upgrades and pick them up manually. This is why you see a lot of players neglect weapon upgrades as USF or UKF, because they forget to buy them.

That's the worst excuse ever!
Grens need less to fully reinforce only when they can die less frequently than other Core infantry
In fact no, Grens aren't more versatile than Volks, Rifles or Tommies..
They will suffer casualty in first salvo of changing fire