OKW Command Panther veterancy is a bit broken

Vet 0 Command Panther is worse than vet 0 normal Panther.

Vet 0 Command Panther is worse than vet 0 normal Panther.

Aaaactually, 50 sight range alone makes it superior.

But the unit is fine.

Aaaactually, 50 sight range alone makes it superior.

But the unit is fine.

I agree. Thats why I wrote that at vet 2 or below they are approximatly equal. The CP slightly better but also costing slightly more.

Aaaactually, 50 sight range alone makes it superior.

But the unit is fine.

So command Panther does not have 50 sight range... it has 35+20=55

It is also more expensive, gets worse vet bonuses and need more XP to vet.

You make some very good points Krötentöten.

Now remember, the AURA of the CP does not affect the CP, exception beeing the vet 0 aura, what does this mean?

Actually, it doesn't. The reason it SEEMS that the aura affects the CP is because it simply gets better sight range directly on the base stats (as pointed by Katitof -- but it's 55, not 50!).

That means no juicy 10% Speed/Acceleration bonuses on the CP!

At vet 0 it is an ordinary okw panther with the bonuses from its vet 0 aura (the ONLY bonus the CP gives itself, 2 CPs give each other their aura but it does NOT stack on units that already have the aura, it simply alternates between the 2 CPs auras depending on which one is nearer i assume)

It depends on what you mean by ordinary, and which Panther (OKW or OST) you are comparing it to. All 3 versions are vastly different. The differences are the following:

OST Panther
- Let's use this as the baseline (base stats + veterancy)
- Blitzkrieg: +15% speed, -25% received accuracy

OKW Vanilla Panther
- Improved MG DPS (I'm not a connoisseur. Probably around +30-50% MG DPS)
- Improved moving accuracy (+30% compared to OST Panther)
- Combat Blitz: +40% speed, -50% received accuracy, +100% accuracy
- Vet4 & Vet5

Command Panther
- Improved sight range (35 -> 55)
- Improved MG DPS (same as vanilla OKW Panther)
- Combat Blitz (same as OKW Panther)
- Offensive vet starts lagging behind at Vet2 & Vet3
(not a typo: The CP doesn't gain the moving accuracy bonus of the OKW panther)

Now keep in mind that the CP also has substantialy higher vet requirements than the normal panther whilst doing LESS dps from vet 3 on as it only get 10 % reload vs 30%. As a sidenote, there are also -5% reload bulletins for the Panther whilst the CP just has 5% top speed.

Bear in mind that any ability that increases the damage output by 50% against a target, also increases the speed of attaining veterancy by 50%.

If I am reading the threshold values correctly, the value of the Vet thresholds for the CP is only 15% higher than the normal panther (I might be completely wrong however, and I would love to know how to read this properly).

This means that a Command Panther with Coordinated Fire can vet up faster than a Vanilla Panther without Coordinated Fire.

This means that by itsself based on stats the CP is inferior to the normal panther at any vet over vet 2 beeing almost identical at vets below or at that. This also means that a panther and a CP duo at over vet 2 is weaker than a simple double normal panther duo. If you have 3 tanks the setup with the CP is favoured.

This assumes that you don't have access to the Coordinated Fire. Even if the price/bonuses of Coordinated Fire were balanced according to the Soviet Version, the entire OKW army would benefit from it (including infantry & AT guns):
- +50% extra damage vs vehicles that you need to wipe
- +50% veterancy due to extra damage against said vehicles

Btw, on smaller-sized games it might make sense to mix a Command Panther with light vehicles, instead of a Panther duo (that is just too much role duplication, when the CP already hardcounters heavy vehicles). That way one can easily afford to grow a larger vehicle based army (a 70-sight range Puma off-the-bat is )

The sight is useful. It can spot for itsself. Its not that much more than useful though as often you use combined tactics in which sight range is already given through other units.

For the smaller gamemodes, you are mostly correct. However, I would reappraise this statement in the context of mixed-team games. To see an example where the lack of self-spotting REALLY hurts look no further than the USF end-game:
- Their only effective units (Jacksons) at this stage are fragile and rely on outranging the enemy to even be useful
- As OKW, I can easily take advantage of it, by diving in, getting my kills and diving out
- Jacksons will probably die if they try to chase me back
- That's not necessarily because my Panther will kill them; they might run into AT guns, schrecks etc
- By the time the Jackson spots these, it will be dead
- Instead, a self-spotting armoured blob (with sweepers) will almost never walk into an ambush

And last but not least. The british command vehicle gives the stronger buffs to infantry and tanks from the get go for only 75 min. It does half all the stats from the carrier but if its an aec or carrier who cares. -30 reload, +30 acc -30 rec. Acc.

You are correct. The UKF aura vehicle offers massive bonuses to the player. However, the UKF command vehicle offers some very clear tradeoffs:
- The radius of the command aura is nowhere near as half the size of the CP aura
- The unit you place the buff on becomes useless
- It makes the affected unit as slow as molasses and cannot keep up with an offensive composition
- Most cheap-enough units worth to become CPs are also very slow to begin with

My personal take on the bonuses
Let's assume that the CP received no combat veterancy at all.

Now, let's consider the following two features (i) Coordinated Fire and (ii) Vetting aura, and examine what happens if the Command Panther would lose one, or both of these features.

The Panther retains:
- Coordinated Fire & Vetting aura: Fielding the CP as the first armoured unit is a no-brainer
- Only Coordinated Fire: I would still field the CP first; Coordinated Fire also benefits my infantry
- Only Vetting Aura: I would only field the CP first if the aura vet was really worth it. Otherwise, I would field a vanilla vehicle first
- Neither bonus, but a non-vetting Aura: (With or without combat veterancy) I don't think that the spotting bonus of the CP alone is worth it, unless the CP becomes significantly cheaper; I'd make another vehicle first instead -- no brainer.

Vet5 for normal Panther is 18155 xp. Vet5 for Command Panther is 20748. Not a big difference. Getting a Command Panther on Vet4 is about the same as getting a JP4 on vet5... (ignoring mark target, higher rof of the jp etc.)

Its Relic incompitence again. In allied patch prior this they buffed allied stuff to deal better with axis in late game insisting that factions should be equal (read allies should beat axis in all stages).

Now they buff useless OKW early, mid and late game, which is fine, but they removed resourse penalty for no reason at all (why not ajust prices, ffs?) while allowing OKW to remain some mad late game things like jp4 veterancy and cp veterancy and mark target. OKW early game might be weak (however map pressense are not thanks to kubels), but OKW mid and late game now absoulte nuts.

Cp vet might be fine but 35muni old 50% mark target with accuraccy bonus on top of it is beyond broken.

I wouldn't say USF is any weaker than OKW in late game nowadays.

RE blob, Rifle blob, Pack Howtizer, Best light vehicle, Calliope, Pershing.

I wouldn't say USF is any weaker than OKW in late game nowadays.

RE blob, Rifle blob, Pack Howtizer, Best light vehicle, Calliope, Pershing.

Pack howis and light vehicles are late game? Ever fought a Command Panther with Pershing? How do you kill a KingTiger that is backed up by a JP4? How do you do against Vet5 Obers if they can simply run out of your Calliope barrage? How do you kill a Jagdtiger?

Panther nned change, up CP, coz 10 cp is to early for heavy tank. Change vet coz its to strong. Relic need do so many changes for game and for OKW, so many rework with units, stats and vet.

Panther nned change, up CP, coz 10 cp is to early for heavy tank. Change vet coz its to strong. Relic need do so many changes for game and for OKW, so many rework with units, stats and vet.

Panther is a medium tank, and i would agree with increasing its CP IF the tank had good AI like other tanks AI. 10 cp is quite early but its this tank is not a unit that comes early and is guna start killing all your infatry or soemthing and have such an impact unless its fighting armour. I think the unit is fine, dont change something that isn't over powered and I have never seen a game where a command panther came on and changed the game on its own, OP is exaggerating in my opinion

edit

can the command panther abandon? if so could a brit cap it and turn it into a super command vehicle?
(would the buffs stack?)

Pack howis and light vehicles are late game? Ever fought a Command Panther with Pershing? How do you kill a KingTiger that is backed up by a JP4? How do you do against Vet5 Obers if they can simply run out of your Calliope barrage? How do you kill a Jagdtiger?

Maybe you can stop using 4v4 as an argument?

Pershing can rape a Command Panther if you support it + Ignore-reload HVAP.

How on earth can you get KT+JP4+Command Panther in 2v2 or below? Pop cap alone would kill you.

can the command panther abandon? if so could a brit cap it and turn it into a super command vehicle?
(would the buffs stack?)

Yea and you are an evil bastard to even think of such combo like a KT for the ost with fortification imagine the horror

How on earth can you get KT+JP4+Command Panther in 2v2 or below? Pop cap alone would kill you.

I'd say a really intense game goes around 40+ min. The time needed for a Kingtiger and JP4 to appear is about 34min, given a 20f income per minute. Btw, I never mentioned your "KT+JP4+Command Panther" combination - pls don't twist my words so you can defame me as 4v4 scrub.

Question - do you play 4v4?

If so, drop this. There are so many more broken balance issues in 4v4 - this should be the least of your worries.

Channel your complaining into Brit emplacements (Advanced cancer emplacements specifically). They are OP from 1v1 tight through to 4v4, and a MUCH more significant balance issue than this. BY FAR

Yea and you are an evil bastard to even think of such combo like a KT for the ost with fortification imagine the horror

I need to try this (cheat mod obviously, if I can do it irl ill go by a lotto ticket)

can the command panther abandon? if so could a brit cap it and turn it into a super command vehicle?
(would the buffs stack?)

The Ostheer Com. PZ4 turns into a normal PZ4 if it abandoned... not sure about Com. Panther

The Ostheer Com. PZ4 turns into a normal PZ4 if it abandoned... not sure about Com. Panther

Does it? Didnt know that.. So its just a snub nosed waste of pop?
What if the ost caps it again? Same deal?
So many questions and too much time at work

Channel your complaining into Brit emplacements (Advanced cancer emplacements specifically). They are OP from 1v1 tight through to 4v4, and a MUCH more significant balance issue than this. BY FAR

The Command Panther is and has been an issue at least ever since the OKW rework when the CP was made extremely accessible. When Relic concluded OKW rework, it seems that they have left out some rough edges. Without the community pointing these out, I doubt that Relic will ever even consider fixing these issues.

Sure, I agree with you that the Command Panther is and has been overshadowed by other, more blatantly-broken commanders and abilities. However, that doesn't stop the Command Panther from also being broken. IT has been already 4 months now, and I believe that it is now finally the turn for the Command Panther to also be rebalanced.

I've already diverted enough of my attention to do the analysis carefully, and I've presented my case in the OP, and the subsequent responses.

Now, this is where I struggle to understand the point you are trying to make. Do you argue that something in my analysis doesn't hold? Or perhaps that I am drawing a wrong conclusion somewhere? I would appreciate your feedback. However, I cannot see a single good reason not to point out such a glaring balance oversight.