u want realism?
go play men of war
Annnnnd Welcome to the Forum
soviet vs okw matchup
20 Jan 2015, 03:21 AM
#41
Posts: 1637
Annnnnd Welcome to the Forum
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
20 Jan 2015, 08:50 AM
#42
Posts: 66
u want realism?
go play men of war
Thanks for the heads up on Men of War, I had not yet heard of that game until now. Looks interesting from a few Youtube videos and I will check it out.
20 Jan 2015, 08:51 AM
#43
Posts: 284
Maxim spam is easy to shut down, no snares, no scaling. I guess it's a matter of skill levels on the same way i say OKW is easier to play but not neccesarily better. I'm "afraid" whenever i see either no tech (con spam) or T1 openings than T2.
The reason is simple: you ever lose map control with maxim spam and you won't recover it. And to do that is as simple as hugging green cover, houses, flanking, scouting/crashing with SwS.
There are two early tactic against OKW (with soviets):
1. maxim spam + zis (and maybe a mortar)
2. clowncar and flames
Clowncar is not so viable, but maxim spam can be especially when key areas surrounded with strong buildings. LeIG is overpriced... OKW can go for stuka but thats expensive, or for FlakHT, which is great, but if soviets got a ZiS it can go down easily. And who needs an 50FU drawback with OKW.
Anyway, yes, if the maxim spam fails to hold the area, its very unlikely to get it back with maxims.
And i never destroy houses with SWS, thats just lame imo.
I think LeIG should be looked at.
20 Jan 2015, 10:28 AM
#44
Posts: 1439
For the M3s: timing is everything.
Your flamer + m3 hits WELL before the first schreck, let alone the first 251 flak or puma. Even 1 schreck isn't enough to keep the car in check. The schreck can only be in one place, the car has a huge mobility advantage. Any lone squads are going to get picked off/harassed/bled, forcing you to play mainly around your lone schreck squad - and god forbid you lose it.
Every game that I open with M3s I get at least one squad wipe, generally more. Plus it gives CP and vet to either penals or your engineers. Vet 2 flamer penals are super hard for OKW to deal with because Oorah lets them soft-counter Obers while completely hard-countering Volks/Sturms.
I doubt I'd open this way in the current 1v1 meta, because the 251 flak is so strong against T1 openings, however I almost always open this way in 2v2s, and have my USF partner get Capt. Capt tech utterly dominates OKW Mech openers. In my opinion it is better to open 3-4 Cons into T2 as Soviet vs OKW in 1v1.
T3 and T4 are both quite strong against OKW, again because of the timing. If you have map control going T3 for a quick T70 or T34 can be extremely punishing as OKW doesn't have access to PaKs and Raketens just suck. Their Panther is going to hit long after your initial vehicle, and you'll have either ZiS guns or Jacksons to contend with the panther anyway. If you don't have map control, you skip the tech and fall back on your IS2s or T34/85s. T3 is going to be better in 1v1 than in a 2v2, because your USF partner is probably going to rush a Sherman anyways, there isn't much need for your T3 tank.
Shocks are super good against OKW because of the way all their weapon profiles work. You can close in on Volks extremely easily, you dominate Sturms, and with proper flanking you can do well against Obers. Of course you'll lose to the Obers if you try to run straight at them but with green cover/true sight/smoke it isn't that hard to get into close range, at which point you absolutely wreck them. Biggest issue for Shocks is the Luchs/251 Flak really. But neither of those units is scary for a Con/T2 opener.
Finally, OKW has literally no good answer for Is-2s - and tends to struggle against T34/85s. The Panther can keep the IS-2 at bay, but struggles to ever kill it, especially when you have to fear AT nades/mines/ZiS constantly. Meanwhile the IS-2 is running around 1 shotting squads, laughing at schrecks and getting to vet 2... at which point your Panther is absolutely gardened.
Not to mention, you literally cannot open with a forward med truck against Soviet. You will lose to 120s every time.
If you read my post more carefully (reading comprehension is important boys!) you'll see that I never called OKW a weak faction. In fact I clearly pointed out some issues where they could be toned down/redesigned. They're undeniably the stronger Axis faction but they're absolutely disadvantaged against Soviets in 1v1 and 2v2.
Sorry, but based on my 1v1 experience I disagree.
T1 can be easily shut down by Luchs/ flack halftruck. Yes, you have early game advantage but if you have to completely dominate OKW player to come on top. If you don't he will punish you heavily. For me it's very high risk - moderate reward scenario.
Flack truck will cut you off from a part of the map and force you to fight around it and you aren't always able to destroy it with ZiS gun. When is heavily protected you'll have to wait for tanks.
Also every time you won't achieve squad wipe it's a loss as at some point OKW will reach Vet5.
20 Jan 2015, 10:28 AM
#45
Posts: 1705
Hehe I know, but my point was that citing a specific tourney game as evidence of strat validity or balance is a very shaky leg to stand on. He talks about Wehr weakness in almost every post then cites a specific soviet game to prove a point. I was just showing that by that logic, Wehr is fine because Jesulin won the finals with them (I don't think they're fine fyi).
Jesulin won vs soviet,not usf which is much more tougher(not that i'm saying its impossible).He's also prob best player.
Also some sov players were saying t1 into shocks as if something completely from another planet,thats was just an example its not so.I have seen and used it on occasion.With proper mines,At nades and backtech zis its not far fetched at all.
20 Jan 2015, 11:27 AM
#46
Posts: 142
Sorry, but based on my 1v1 experience I disagree.
T1 can be easily shut down by Luchs/ flack halftruck. Yes, you have early game advantage but if you have to completely dominate OKW player to come on top. If you don't he will punish you heavily. For me it's very high risk - moderate reward scenario.
Flack truck will cut you off from a part of the map and force you to fight around it and you aren't always able to destroy it with ZiS gun. When is heavily protected you'll have to wait for tanks.
Also every time you won't achieve squad wipe it's a loss as at some point OKW will reach Vet5.
He already said he wouldn't go T1 as Soviet in 1vs1:
Wrote by Ciez:
I doubt I'd open this way in the current 1v1 meta, because the 251 flak is so strong against T1 openings, however I almost always open this way in 2v2s, and have my USF partner get Capt. Capt tech utterly dominates OKW Mech openers. In my opinion it is better to open 3-4 Cons into T2 as Soviet vs OKW in 1v1.
20 Jan 2015, 12:34 PM
#47
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Thanks for the heads up on Men of War, I had not yet heard of that game until now. Looks interesting from a few Youtube videos and I will check it out.
Its not, don't waste your money on it, he meant that you will not find realism in coh2, because its arcade rts, so asking for it is pointless and you'll hate MoW exactly because of realism, like we all did(don't know a single player who played it and still does).
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
20 Jan 2015, 14:33 PM
#48
Posts: 197
Well, let's not "balance" everything by just buffing units. The problems, both in terms of design and performance, is OKW. They are the faction that needs a serious overhaul. Right now they make no sense whatsoever. The meta call ins for Ost and Sov is boring, but rather than changing units I would like to see a cost reduction for T3 and T4.
20 Jan 2015, 18:23 PM
#49
Posts: 66
Its not, don't waste your money on it, he meant that you will not find realism in coh2, because its arcade rts, so asking for it is pointless and you'll hate MoW exactly because of realism, like we all did(don't know a single player who played it and still does).
For the record, I know what he meant but decided to ignore its impolite character as unworthy behavior of the individual who posted it.
It would seem however that few understood what I wrote in my original post. Rather than a plea for realism let me say again that the range on the Panzershreck is the primary cause of OKW imbalance issues, Volkshreck blobbing, and the lack of alternative AT use. I propose it be reduced by 5.
20 Jan 2015, 23:23 PM
#50
Posts: 1026
Yeah I got absolutely rolled in my last two games where I did a T1 opening. The Flak HT gets on the field before my Guards do sometimes 
20 Jan 2015, 23:31 PM
#51
Posts: 1637
For the record, I know what he meant but decided to ignore its impolite character as unworthy behavior of the individual who posted it.
It would seem however that few understood what I wrote in my original post. Rather than a plea for realism let me say again that the range on the Panzershreck is the primary cause of OKW imbalance issues, Volkshreck blobbing, and the lack of alternative AT use. I propose it be reduced by 5.
Even the Vaunted "Weapon Profiles" would help. I mean who would be more accurate with a Shrek? An Elite PanzerGren or a mishmash of Walking Wounded from Different squads and experience levels?
My money is on the PanzerGrens. Even their name implies they work with armor. Volks implies they are regular Joes.
Reduce accuracy for Shreks on Volks substantially. Since Pgrens cost about 50% more lets lower its long range accuracy by the same margin and call it a day. At Vet it will come out to be about the same as a Pgren.
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
21 Jan 2015, 00:35 AM
#52
Posts: 688
What really irks me is when I fire at a puma at it's REAR and it fires at the front armour of my T34. T34 still loses clearly.
The Puma has a large caliber (50mm?) AFAIR, but still: I'm shoting at it's rear. Isn't it off scale to a tank vs armoured car battle that the armoured car has so much rear armour it can outlast a tank?
The Puma has a large caliber (50mm?) AFAIR, but still: I'm shoting at it's rear. Isn't it off scale to a tank vs armoured car battle that the armoured car has so much rear armour it can outlast a tank?
'There's honour in victory, honour in defeat and honour in just staying alive'.
[Quote from Wings Reel]
[Quote from Wings Reel]
21 Jan 2015, 01:38 AM
#53
Posts: 1130
What really irks me is when I fire at a puma at it's REAR and it fires at the front armour of my T34. T34 still loses clearly.
The Puma has a large caliber (50mm?) AFAIR, but still: I'm shoting at it's rear. Isn't it off scale to a tank vs armoured car battle that the armoured car has so much rear armour it can outlast a tank?
Armour front or rear means nothing when it comes to the hp of an unit. the shot either penetrates or not and then it does damage. the puma has 400 hp and needs 3 shots to be taken out by the t-34 that does 160 damage. the puma itself does 120 damage and needs to fire at the t-34 6 times as the puma's gun does 120 damage and the t-34 has 640 hp.
horrida flamma bella
21 Jan 2015, 01:41 AM
#54
Posts: 351
What really irks me is when I fire at a puma at it's REAR and it fires at the front armour of my T34. T34 still loses clearly.
The Puma has a large caliber (50mm?) AFAIR, but still: I'm shoting at it's rear. Isn't it off scale to a tank vs armoured car battle that the armoured car has so much rear armour it can outlast a tank?
Uh, a t-34 beats a puma in a slug fest but the puma can win with its turret lock ability or by kiting. You don't bounce T-34 shots on a puma, but you can miss. Maybe that's what you experienced?
21 Jan 2015, 13:34 PM
#55
Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1
You're a joke i don't know how you expect me to take you seriously, take your craps somewhere else
I'm sorry, I knew truth allways upsets people, but couldn't abstain. So, sorry for upseting you.
And yeah, don't listen to CieZ, he doesn't know what he's talking about, why should we listen to best players in Coh2?
BeefSurge wrote:
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
21 Jan 2015, 13:39 PM
#56
Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1
I'll say it again, if there is an opening i'm not afraid from SU is maxim spam because it's easier to shut down in comparison to constant agression from Con spam, wiping M3 kitting micro or double sprinting snipers. I just like when people go maxim spam, specially on certain maps where i can easily block all the retreat paths with sandbags and you can't vault over them
Note: theres a difference between maxim spam and con with maxim support. I guess you are talking of going 1 or no conscript into 3/4 maxims.
One - max 2 cons + 1 engie or 2 engies plus one cons. Plus mortar (preferably 120 for the OKW advanced structures - as CieZ mentioned) and Zis, into double T34s and later into something heavier (preferably 85s which I find to be a better option instead of IS2).
BeefSurge wrote:
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
21 Jan 2015, 13:46 PM
#57
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
I'm sorry, I knew truth allways upsets people, but couldn't abstain. So, sorry for upseting you.
And yeah, don't listen to CieZ, he doesn't know what he's talking about, why should we listen to best players in Coh2?
Should I make the list of utter bullshit that HelpingHans was saying in regards to balance?
He is hardly a bad player and I really enjoy his streams, but there are times where I need to mute him to keep my sanity because of the utter crap regarding balance he sometimes says.
Point is, while best players certainly understand the game better(or at least should), their opinions are still mixed and sometimes absurd. Following someone just because he said what you want to hear and believe is called politics and we all know that not all politicians are right.
Same case with top players. Being top doesn't equal with being right, because you can still be heavily biased or fixated or something that is issue for you, but not for anyone else.
I'm not saying that Ciez is right or not, so don't try to read between the lines.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
21 Jan 2015, 13:55 PM
#58
Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1
I'm not saying that Ciez is right or not, so don't try to read between the lines.
No worries, I have allways troubles reading you, actually
BeefSurge wrote:
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
21 Jan 2015, 15:06 PM
#59
Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2
Permanently Banned
One - max 2 cons + 1 engie or 2 engies plus one cons. Plus mortar (preferably 120 for the OKW advanced structures - as CieZ mentioned) and Zis, into double T34s and later into something heavier (preferably 85s which I find to be a better option instead of IS2).
1 sturm, 5 volks > ^ that
There is no recording in all WW2 history of a piat actually knocking off a vehicle. Yes, it was THAT bad.
21 Jan 2015, 15:23 PM
#60
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
One - max 2 cons + 1 engie or 2 engies plus one cons. Plus mortar (preferably 120 for the OKW advanced structures - as CieZ mentioned) and Zis, into double T34s and later into something heavier (preferably 85s which I find to be a better option instead of IS2).
Again, how many maxims on top of that 400mp 120mm and your single Zis gun. I've problems opening this way since it lacks the best of both worlds, heavy agression and map presence with con spam or pure overlaying supression lines with sheer maxim spam.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
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