T4 and the Panther

Saving up for T4 in 1v1s would have been good if Soviet equipment doesn't frequently make immediate squad wipes on German infantry and AT guns. Also doctrinal Heavy tanks should come out even later since players don't think T4 is necessary when heavy tanks that costs the same would arrive just as early anyways.

The German side has good amount of AT that doesn't require fuel like Teller mines, Panzershrecks, AT gun. That's enough equipment that could hold off a few amount of enemy tanks till the Panther arrive. However, since the Soviets have so many squad wiping weapons in their arsenal like mines and precision strike and there is a high chance of Panzershrecks dropping. Holding off till T4 is just too damn risky.

As for larger games we would be seeing a lot more T3 if the main tank which is the Panzer IV doesn't miss so often. The scatter range is insane and often you see the damn tank firing at the ground when there is a tank right afront of it. The other alternative the
Stug III is just a glass cannon and it's also inaccurate but for different reasons.

Courage the Cowardly Dog!

Have you seen precision strike post patch? Havent got a single whipe with it yet. Hits like a Guards nade now (which CAN whipe but doesnt ALWAYS whipe)

As far as the OP. I think you are going about this all wrong. The problem with the team game modes is resource sharing and scaling. Relic should simply adjust how muni and fuel scale on larger maps. Make them worth less resources for example and not allow things like Opels to share. I get Caches because you can only ever place one but any number of players can plant Opels.

Once this is done the fuel cost will impact higher games and things like Shrek Blobs and Hordes of Panthers will be nearly as painful to pull off as it is in 1v1.

Have you seen precision strike post patch? Havent got a single whipe with it yet. Hits like a Guards nade now (which CAN whipe but doesnt ALWAYS whipe)

As far as the OP. I think you are going about this all wrong. The problem with the team game modes is resource sharing and scaling. Relic should simply adjust how muni and fuel scale on larger maps. Make them worth less resources for example and not allow things like Opels to share. I get Caches because you can only ever place one but any number of players can plant Opels.

Once this is done the fuel cost will impact higher games and things like Shrek Blobs and Hordes of Panthers will be nearly as painful to pull off as it is in 1v1.

Actually not a bad idea.

Also Jinseual I agree that the scatter penalty on the P4 (and possibly to a lesser degree on the T34) is far too extreme.

Stug III still needs love, has for a while. Right now it is ok against T34 spam, as long as, you can build up to 2 or more. One is just vet for Soviet tanks. It is very hard to use in team games where T34's and Su85's come out at the same time. This may be almost impossible to fix perfectly though.

Have you seen precision strike post patch? Havent got a single whipe with it yet. Hits like a Guards nade now (which CAN whipe but doesnt ALWAYS whipe)

As far as the OP. I think you are going about this all wrong. The problem with the team game modes is resource sharing and scaling. Relic should simply adjust how muni and fuel scale on larger maps. Make them worth less resources for example and not allow things like Opels to share. I get Caches because you can only ever place one but any number of players can plant Opels.

Once this is done the fuel cost will impact higher games and things like Shrek Blobs and Hordes of Panthers will be nearly as painful to pull off as it is in 1v1.

+1 good idea that points to the root of the problem in team games. Just way too much fuel and munition income.

In my opinion, the problem with PV is not it's current stats but it's role, the gap it fills in the game. Say, if it was Marder III instead of Panzer V, I think no one would complaing about it's role this much. Almost every week someone opens up a thread about Panther nerf or stat change.

its*

[...]
Actually not a bad idea.

Also Jinseual I agree that the scatter penalty on the P4 (and possibly to a lesser degree on the T34) is far too extreme.[...]

When I was saying that this will be the case when the scatter nerf patch notes leaked everyone was calling me crazy.

You'll need a Panther in the very rare situation that the enemy is fielding ISU 152s. Every other tank will not be able to circle it without being destroyed by the ISU and/or supporting AT guns.

Tigers aren't fast enough for that imo. But well... Not everyone uses Tiger doctrines I guess.

But apart from that pIV seems to be better for 1v1 because it's cheaper.

The only slightly effective counter to Panthers I've found is vet guards spam. Have them park themselves out the front of panther with alternating button and then just wait as the PTRS slowly grinds down the health, back this with an SU-85 or 2 and Panthers have nowhere to go but forwards to be buttoned or backwards to retreat.

My problem with the Panther is that it basically invalidates most if not all Soviet doctrinal armour, unless an SU-85 is extremely well supported it's going down and god forbid the Panther blitzkriegs... German T4 outclasses Soviet T3 in all aspects making going T3 a risky and often depressing endeavour (German T3 is just as superior) Even Soviet Doctrinal hardware can barely stand up to it. ISU-152 can barely penetrate half the time and is blitzed and outflanked the other half. Make the Panther doctrinal? Too late methinks but a man can dream... I like the idea of a marder series (that you could keep upgrading with new stuff, chassis, gun etc to make some sort of nashorn or the like).

It strikes me that the Panther is fine, but Soviet non-doctrinal hardware isn't, simply put T3 isn't good enough and T3, which has all the mobile armour, is what should be the "dance partner" to T4 as T4 also has the mobile armour... Of course, the problem there is that whilst the Soviets have to go assault guns or tanks, Germans in both T3 and T4 have a choice for both...

Just my 2c...

P.S. large games / 4v4s go just apeshit, i would't even bother to balance that mess.

Should those of us who like larger games and would like to think the developers might consider us in balance decisions just fuck off then?

Bit of a problem, really, 1 v 1 WonderBoy. We're the majority.

Should those of us who like larger games and would like to think the developers might consider us in balance decisions just fuck off then?

Bit of a problem, really, 1 v 1 WonderBoy. We're the majority.

Sensitive subject, apparently.

Should those of us who like larger games and would like to think the developers might consider us in balance decisions just fuck off then?

First things first. 1v1 and 4v4 are entirely different games. The entire balance foundation goes out the window on larger games. The soviet tech tree is meant to force tough decisions between T1-2 and T3-4 with huge drawbacks. Gone completely in 2v2+. Specialized units can't be easily massed to achieve critical numbers, because they leave massive gaps if another player is not covering them up. The timing of units and disposability of abilities is completely off the beaten track due to the abundance of caches. Maneuvering is limited because there are too many units and not enough room. Unit composition is constrained, powerful yet expensive units with late game worth dominate. And so forth.

If 1v1 was a classical, intricate ballet, then 4v4 is a loud techno party in a crowded club. That's what my comment was aimed at.


If you ask me if i would consider balance opinions of "large game players", then my answer is principally yes. Every argument should speak for itself, no matter where it came from. (After all, what would Nullist say about all the ad hominems)

Well, in theory. Practically i haven't came across many arguments over the years that i consider insightful from solely large game players. Giving panthers 60 range or just taking a look at the (especially steam-) forums only reaffirms my impression. Given the circumstances of the game mode, i'm not that surprised. We can agree to disagree on that, that's fine.

Bit of a problem, really, 1 v 1 WonderBoy. We're the majority.

Please, there is no need for that. I've played my fair share of vire river valley and route n13, just like most the players that start with CoH and want a more fun, relaxed experience.

Having the majority doesn't elevate balance suggestions beyond their base value.

OK point taken. I shot from the hip there, I apologize.

But if Relic is going to offer 3 v 3 and 4 v 4 it isn't on to just say "hell, we ain't balancing *that* "

Of course, if Relic acknowledged that larger games are different (as per loads of posts asking for that) and scaled accordingly then this wouldn't be an issue.

As it stands the game is balanced for a small minority. Seems ass backwards.

what i wish to se is that you cant spam them and so that means a high unit pop cap on p5 tigers eles is2 and isu152 and maby a bit higher on the us85. so you wont see in 15 min in 3v3 5 p5 roaming around killing everyting.

Changed my mind. T4 is actually nice if you play t1-t2-t4 strategies. Works way better than my old t1-t2-t3 attempt.

Actually, Panthers are better than Tigers

- Much cheaper fuel wise
- deal just as good damage
- take quite a beating from everything
- do not get frontal engine damage from at nades (at least less than StuGs/pIV)

and well... Teching to t4 is only 95 fuel - building t3 costs you 55 fuel. I always thought it would be more expensive. Also, going t4 opens up other doctrine choices not involving Tigers.

What?!

Gsus, all you guys won't stop about complaining how germans are overpowered. I mean, what other advantages do you want for soviets? They allready have several over the germans.
Why all players with german faction need to have a godlike micro while soviets are not required to, in order to achieve high stats?! As a soviet player, you don't need such a good micro, you can win without that! It's not right to heat your mouse like hell while playing the germans while having a much better life as soviet.

The only change this game needs, is to give german infantry a real fighting chance in middle and endgame. FFS, in a VP game you won't cap with tanks, (oh, wait, soviets do!), and most of german players are finding themselves in a squads whipe situations while soviets have infantry all over the place. Now you want to drop down the Panther health? That's insane.

Noob. Germans are hella OP. If ONLY letting Soviet tanks cap points once veteraned and in secure mode (non-offensive) even remotely made up for their glass armor... Really, that's your "BIG ADVANTAGE"? LOL. And I've been playing the hell out of German lately...because they're OP and it's fun to troll and dominate! Soviet is hard mode. This is known consensus. :3

Noob. Germans are hella OP. If ONLY letting Soviet tanks cap points once veteraned and in secure mode (non-offensive) even remotely made up for their glass armor... Really, that's your "BIG ADVANTAGE"? LOL. And I've been playing the hell out of German lately...because they're OP and it's fun to troll and dominate! Soviet is hard mode. This is known consensus. :3

After playing like 10 games today I also got a similar impression, at least if you abuse Rifle grenades and snipers hard enough. (at least for 1v1)

Only if you let them revert the SU-85 too

haha sure thing. beta panther outranged su85's and could easily kill 2 if not 3 of em without circlestrafing

After playing like 10 games today I also got a similar impression, at least if you abuse Rifle grenades and snipers hard enough. (at least for 1v1)

Soviets are the best due to their ease of use and versatility, Germans are the best if you can micro well and have a good build-order (which nullifies the Soviet advantage).

versatile[ vur-suh-tl or, esp. British, -tahyl ]
adjective
1. capable of or adapted for turning easily from one to another of various tasks, fields of endeavor, etc.: a versatile writer.
2. having or capable of many uses: a versatile tool.
3. attached at or near the middle so as to swing freely, as an anther.

Where is soviets versatile, beening restricted to tech builds like t2 to t3, t1 to t4 or vice vercer is not versatile. Then having to use commanders to fill in the gaps because of you teching choices is not versatile.

Soviets are the best due to their ease of use and versatility, Germans are the best if you can micro well and have a good build-order (which nullifies the Soviet advantage).