T4 and the Panther

As some of you may know german T4 is in a rather troublesome place in our current meta. In 1v1s it often goes unused due to the price, but provides a rather large advantage to german late game due to the effectiveness of the units it provides being simply better then what soviets can field with simple non-doctrinal means and only being somewhat matched by their doctrinal selection. While waiting for T4 is a substantial risk in small games, hordes of panthers reign supreme in large matches. So how can we fix such a problem?

1. Lower the price of upgrading and/or building T4:
This would allow the german player to more easily hold out until T4. Allowing them have it less as an upgrade to simply more powerful weapons, but as a option for units that are more specialized then T3 provides as well as easier access to artillery not completely unlike Soviet T4.

2. Lower the health of the panther to be more in line with other medium tanks while increasing it's range:
As it exists the panther is essentially a heavy tank with it's high health and armor and with good reason due to the high cost of obtaining. But with the first change and these it would change to become more of a long range anti-tank vehicle. With it's high speed it can still flank and even be able to match the high range of SU-85s and while still retaining it's strong frontal armor, be able to last longer then other tanks as long as it keeps them to it's front. The difference being frontal charges not being the go to strategy as they will be more vulnerable when flanked and closed in upon.

I think changes in these proposed direction would have a significant positive effect on both 1v1, 2v2, and even larger team games and also better represent German armor being effective at high ranges. I refrained from using exact stats as I don't pretend to know what exact stats would be best but I think these changes will go far into making T4 a balanced and enticing option without overperforming in any game setting.

Increase Panzer V range? No, no.

Increase Panzer V range? No, no.

We are talking about an almost completely different beast. It's not as if the panther wouldn't be giving up something in return. If caught in a bad position it would be almost as vunerable as a P4. Good micro would be rewarded while bad would be punished.

Let's revert Panther back in beta stat MVGame

I missed the Panther Ace

Let's revert Panther back in beta stat MVGame

I missed the Panther Ace

Only if you let them revert the SU-85 too

We are talking about an almost completely different beast. It's not as if the panther wouldn't be giving up something in return. If caught in a bad position it would be almost as vunerable as a P4. Good micro would be rewarded while bad would be punished.

In my opinion, the problem with PV is not its current stats but it's role, the gap it fills in the game. Say, if it was Marder III instead of Panzer V, I think no one would complaing about it's role this much. Almost every week someone opens up a thread about Panther nerf or stat change.

We are talking about an almost completely different beast. It's not as if the panther wouldn't be giving up something in return. If caught in a bad position it would be almost as vunerable as a P4. Good micro would be rewarded while bad would be punished.

What?!

Gsus, all you guys won't stop about complaining how germans are overpowered. I mean, what other advantages do you want for soviets? They allready have several over the germans.
Why all players with german faction need to have a godlike micro while soviets are not required to, in order to achieve high stats?! As a soviet player, you don't need such a good micro, you can win without that! It's not right to heat your mouse like hell while playing the germans while having a much better life as soviet.

The only change this game needs, is to give german infantry a real fighting chance in middle and endgame. FFS, in a VP game you won't cap with tanks, (oh, wait, soviets do!), and most of german players are finding themselves in a squads whipe situations while soviets have infantry all over the place. Now you want to drop down the Panther health? That's insane.

Giving one of the most mobile tanks the second biggest range, while easier access to it?

No, i see aaaaabsolutely no problem with this.


To be very clear, a fast tank with a turret does not simply get "caught in a bad position", especially when it has no reason to get any closer than the range of an at gun / su85.

While i agree on your first observation about the viability in 1v1, this solution is something i dont.


P.S. large games / 4v4s go just apeshit, i would't even bother to balance that mess.

In my opinion, the problem with PV is not it's current stats but it's role, the gap it fills in the game. Say, if it was Marder III instead of Panzer V, I think no one would complaing about it's role this much. Almost every week someone opens up a thread about Panther nerf or stat change.

It's role currently is that of a non-doctrinal heavy tanks that suffers at killing infantry while also not fearing any infantry isn't really a role that should be in the game. These changes would more cement it's role as an AT tank, but actually gives it something to fear. Anything that can pierce it's armor will damage it greatly, even guards will start to do damage. All while it can still be used to effectively fight IS-2s and SU-85s.

Giving one of the most mobile tanks the second biggest range, while easier access to it?

No, i see aaaaabsolutely no problem with this.


To be very clear, a fast tank with a turret does not simply get "caught in a bad position", especially when it has no reason to get any closer than the range of an at gun / su85.

While i agree on your first observation about the viability in 1v1, this solution is something i dont.


P.S. large games / 4v4s go just apeshit, i would't even bother to balance that mess.

While the panther has nearly 1000 health it will never be balanced. Germans players in team games will continue to spam fuel caches and opels so they can get out as much as possible, and after two or three of them have been acheieved they become an unstoppable horde that soviets can never deal with with their meager AT.

While it would be harder to aaproach these tanks, with use of smoke or flanking once you get close enough they will die rather quickly. Simply two T34/76 attacking from different directions or ideally both from the back and you could kill it without losing a singlke tank. Something that just can not be pulled off with current balance without the use of ram.

And while 4v4 might never be truly balanced, it is rather rude to dismiss concerns simply because you do not play it, because many others do.

Lower Tier 4 cost then increase cost of Tier 4 units. Simple

I played a lot of team games and always went T4 (I know 1 v 1, it's T3).

The Panther has always annoyed me. They adjusted the price here and there and improved the pen of the T-34/85 & IS-2- nerf, buff, etc. but they have always missed the point.

The Panther itself needs a HP nerf. Its HP was always far too high, making it too survivable along with its high speed, smoke and blitz.

Nerf Panther?

I disagree.

If put less armor on panther, put less too to soviet tank's...

Nerf Panther?

I disagree.

If put less armor on panther, put less too to soviet tank's...

What soviet armor? Only KV-2 and IS-2 have anything resembling armor.

Nerf Panther?

I disagree.

If put less armor on panther, put less too to soviet tank's...

less armor = make panthers cheaper

Instead of changing panthers why don't we add a dedicated soviet AT infantry squad? That would solve the problem and is something soviets are desperately lacking. Maybe take the flame thrower upgrade away from penals and replace it with an unlockable AT weapon upgrade from t3 and t4 (something close to the effectiveness of shrecks). I feel lime that would give the penals more of a job as right now its more or less just bunker clearing ... And being forced to go head to head with German armor seems like good punishment for a group of convicts/deserters

That way soviets can take on the panther with the thing its weak against insteading of forcing them to try to take out a "medium" (it should be classified as heavy) AT tank with tanks.

Instead of changing panthers why don't we add a dedicated soviet AT infantry squad? That would solve the problem and is something soviets are desperately lacking. Maybe take the flame thrower upgrade away from penals and replace it with an unlockable AT weapon upgrade from t3 and t4 (something close to the effectiveness of shrecks). I feel lime that would give the penals more of a job as right now its more or less just bunker clearing ... And being forced to go head to head with German armor seems like good punishment for a group of convicts/deserters

That way soviets can take on the panther with the thing its weak against insteading of forcing them to try to take out a "medium" (it should be classified as heavy) AT tank with tanks.

Make satchel sticky, can be enough. Maybie too strong.

less armor = make panthers cheaper

I don't remember them making SU-85 cheaper after they butchered its mobility.

Point is-nerfs don't need to be compensated, thats why they are called nerfs instead of adjustments.

Instead of changing panthers why don't we add a dedicated soviet AT infantry squad? That would solve the problem and is something soviets are desperately lacking. Maybe take the flame thrower upgrade away from penals and replace it with an unlockable AT weapon upgrade from t3 and t4 (something close to the effectiveness of shrecks). I feel lime that would give the penals more of a job as right now its more or less just bunker clearing ... And being forced to go head to head with German armor seems like good punishment for a group of convicts/deserters

That way soviets can take on the panther with the thing its weak against insteading of forcing them to try to take out a "medium" (it should be classified as heavy) AT tank with tanks.

While that would be nice, I highly doubt they are going to add new non-doctrinal units at this point or make significant changes like that. They seem too only change stats and the like.

Lower Tier 4 cost then increase cost of Tier 4 units. Simple

=)

I think it's a reasonable idea. It sounds like a good tradeoff, because that's what you want your panther to be: a tank killer.