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Commander Update Beta 2021 - Ostheer Feedback

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5 Jun 2021, 17:50 PM
#921
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 713 | Subs: 2

Look, I just don't understand the whole idea of reducing the camo to a measly extra 10 meters without being seen. How useful is that actually? For LMG grenadiers, its counter productive, you don't *want* squads to get that close to you before you open fire. Why would you want to?



Well it's probably a compromise. It alleviates the faust issue without fixing it completely. Uncovering them earlier is always better obviously. Mainline camo shouldn't be a thing at all but at least this prevents g43 grens from benefitting which



5 Jun 2021, 18:05 PM
#922
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jun 2021, 17:50 PMGiaA


Well it's probably a compromise. It alleviates the faust issue without fixing it completely. Uncovering them earlier is always better obviously. Mainline camo shouldn't be a thing at all but at least this prevents g43 grens from benefitting which




The theory holds little water.

A) Jaeger Infantry Doctrine is a very popular commander and it should brought in line with other commander but camo is actually one of its weakest abilities.

b) Nerfing camo while buffing G43 for grenadier and especially their alpha strike from camo with grenade at the same time makes even less sense.

c) When it comes to camo Grenadier have on of the worse version and if there is an issue with camo infatry that has more do with infatry that can navigate the battlefield cloak than with infatry that have to lay in ambush.

This change makes even less sense than the original change to bundle camo and sprint in the first place.
5 Jun 2021, 18:07 PM
#923
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

Look, I just don't understand the whole idea of reducing the camo to a measly extra 10 meters without being seen. How useful is that actually? For LMG grenadiers, its counter productive, you don't *want* squads to get that close to you before you open fire. Why would you want to? So you have lower DPS and drop models quicker? There's no point. But for G43, it's not nearly enough. You can't get off a cheeky nade nor do they move into your highest DPS range before you're revealed.

I just don't understand the idea behind it. It makes more sense when the balance notes say that it's because grenadiers are so readily available, but for this sprint/snare combo that everyone is talking about, the change does nothing.


Exactly
Might as well remove it if it's locked from g43
At this point it would be better to keep it just for Panzergrenadiers and team weapons and make it a commando style camo for Panzergrens, maybe bundle with it G43s specifically for Panzergrens so that encirclement and storm get the buff they deserve
5 Jun 2021, 18:15 PM
#924
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

but for this sprint/snare combo that everyone is talking about, the change does nothing.

The change is meant to give the opponent the opportunity to screen their vehicles with infantry, enabling them to detect camouflaged Grens before coming into faust range.


What I'm requesting is the community dev team instead of doing what Sander said about not elaborating on decisions regarding the balance and design of the game that they are making like good little politicians be made more public and transparent.

That's not what I said at all. I spend half my free time elaborating things on the forums. Others try as well. I said we can't elaborate or respond to everything. It's not a full time job.

And again, it's also you who is missing or ignoring things, because I've explained before why Relic didn't want the USF base and why the Sturmtiger definitely does not need a mobile B4 redesign.

People here questioned the Gren camo change. I elaborated the thoughts behind the change and I've communicated that the team has noticed this feedback and will be having another look at it. I don't know how much more transparent you'd like me to be here.
5 Jun 2021, 19:31 PM
#925
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2


The change is meant to give the opponent the opportunity to screen their vehicles with infantry, enabling them to detect camouflaged Grens before coming into faust range.



That's not what I said at all. I spend half my free time elaborating things on the forums. Others try as well. I said we can't elaborate or respond to everything. It's not a full time job.

And again, it's also you who is missing or ignoring things, because I've explained before why Relic didn't want the USF base and why the Sturmtiger definitely does not need a mobile B4 redesign.

People here questioned the Gren camo change. I elaborated the thoughts behind the change and I've communicated that the team has noticed this feedback and will be having another look at it. I don't know how much more transparent you'd like me to be here.


As a modder myself I try to elaborate as much as possible as well.

And no, the USF base was not explained while the Sturmtiger is purely your own opinion when taking into account that after it's 3rd or 4th attempt at a fix it's still a meme unit and it will remain so but I won't bring back that argument here.

Lastly, I would expect for things to be put up for discussion BEFORE they are actually implemented, not after, with the simple excuse being a high ranking 1v1 replay.

Also before I forget, you will not explain why not just this patch but others before it as well had a big window between it's last beta/mod preview update and time of release with having new changes as well. The excuse for this one was that Relic wanted to push the update through, so what about the rest?

Because that's certainly not transparency.
5 Jun 2021, 20:16 PM
#926
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

And no, the USF base was not explained

Are you serious? The fact that you apparently missed it doesn't mean that it wasn't. I explained in one of the feedback threads at the time that Relic looked at the mod together with its creator Sneakeye and that they both agreed it was not feasible to implement it into the live game. You can go look it up.


Lastly, I would expect for things to be put up for discussion BEFORE they are actually implemented, not after, with the simple excuse being a high ranking 1v1 replay.

You got to discuss 99% of changes before implementation. You're just blowing this way out of proportion. And please read, this was definitely not decided based on one single 1v1 replay? Where did you even get that from? I said that many (high level) 1v1 players expressed their concerns about Jaeger Infantry, and that the power level of this commander was definitely being questioned by the broader 1v1 scene, just via several different channels other than this public forum. In response to someone here saying this change "came out of nowhere".


Also before I forget, you will not explain why not just this patch but others before it as well had a big window between it's last beta/mod preview update and time of release with having new changes as well. The excuse for this one was that Relic wanted to push the update through, so what about the rest?

Because I think it should be dead obvious that there's always been a long period between the final public iteration of a balance mod and building the actual patch, and that in the meantime inevitably some additional changes get thought of and added or scrapped? Drop the tin foil hat, there is no conspiracy of willingly keeping out the public or whatever. The fact that there have been extensive public tests for every single patch over the past like 3-4 years prove that. It's purely practical. Most if not all games' dev teams that work with public tests do this, and it has simply been amplified a bit here because patching used to take a lot longer than it does for most regular games for several (hopefully obvious) reasons. Otherwise patches would end up in an endless preview loops.
5 Jun 2021, 20:57 PM
#927
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

I found the following video much more informative about game balance:



TL;DR, games can't be balanced by looking at stats alone.


While really interesting, i think context matters when discussing different genres of games or even games that are in the same category but play completely different. And let's not muddy the discussion when we have to consider when dev/upper management want to release new content that MUST be "interesting" for sales rather than balanced/fair for the game (ahem Akuma/Leeroy or in case of LoL Aphelios).

That's not even considering what each head game design philosophy is for each title.


PD: even on the video they mention that things above 54% means they screw up hard. Good lord what would happen if they see our game with 20% WR diffference.



5 Jun 2021, 21:08 PM
#928
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2


Are you serious? The fact that you apparently missed it doesn't mean that it wasn't. I explained in one of the feedback threads at the time that Relic looked at the mod together with its creator Sneakeye and that they both agreed it was not feasible to implement it into the live game. You can go look it up.



You got to discuss 99% of changes before implementation. You're just blowing this way out of proportion. And please read, this was definitely not decided based on one single 1v1 replay? Where did you even get that from? I said that many (high level) 1v1 players expressed their concerns about Jaeger Infantry, and that the power level of this commander was definitely being questioned by the broader 1v1 scene, just via several different channels other than this public forum. In response to someone here saying this change "came out of nowhere".



Because I think it should be dead obvious that there's always been a long period between the final public iteration of a balance mod and building the actual patch, and that in the meantime inevitably some additional changes get thought of and added or scrapped? Drop the tin foil hat, there is no conspiracy of willingly keeping out the public or whatever. The fact that there have been extensive public tests for every single patch over the past like 3-4 years prove that. It's purely practical. Most if not all games' dev teams that work with public tests do this, and it has simply been amplified a bit here because patching used to take a lot longer than it does for most regular games for several (hopefully obvious) reasons. Otherwise patches would end up in an endless preview loops.


Ah yes, go find the explanation in a buried topic some years ago, very nice answer indeed.

And yeah let's just exclude most of the community on something a few people brought up and then be shocked when people say that it came out of the blue, which it did.

The truth is that you're again making up some excuse as to not keep the community updated and in the loop, "because the others do it too".

Bullshit, it could have been said that there are some experimental things being tested internally or something as to bring in some discussion from the larger community's side as well, instead it was just said that there were some technical issues preventing the patch from releasing and nothing else.

That was YOUR choice that you did it so, not some out of this world force making you do it. You guys chose not to keep the community updated, and don't tell me Relic didn't allow you to or whatever because you've been using them enough as a scapegoat as it is. They can't be blamed for absolutely everything that you guys do or whatever is wrong.
5 Jun 2021, 22:02 PM
#929
avatar of SneakEye
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 817 | Subs: 5

Ah yes, go find the explanation in a buried topic some years ago, very nice answer indeed.

This is the reason which I sent to a member of the patch team some time ago:
The implementation which I use is definitely not fit for the live game. It starts with the British base stamper and spawns/deletes objects through faction requirements. That can easily break when using cheat mode. The Brit base is sometimes even visible when the match is waiting for all players to start and a small explosion can be heard which is used to remove sandbags from the stamper.
I would gladly add this design to vanilla, but that requires a solid implementation which I can't provide.
5 Jun 2021, 22:20 PM
#930
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2


This is the reason which I sent to a member of the patch team some time ago:


Well then, I guess not everybody likes being a good little politician.

Thank you for at least providing some clarity. I appreciate at least one person trying to elaborate.
6 Jun 2021, 08:19 AM
#931
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

I find it weird that commandos being able to instagib squads with their 5 high dps smgs and also being strong enough to charge into any squad isn't a problem but ninja fausting is.
6 Jun 2021, 08:36 AM
#932
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

I find it weird that commandos being able to instagib squads with their 5 high dps smgs and also being strong enough to charge into any squad isn't a problem but ninja fausting is.

A tank is more expensive then that pio you sent to a point and forgot about.
6 Jun 2021, 08:59 AM
#933
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563


A tank is more expensive then that pio you sent to a point and forgot about.

And soooo.......... That is relevant because.
6 Jun 2021, 09:12 AM
#934
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8


And soooo.......... That is relevant because.

Because balance team decided a tank is more valuable and impactful then infantry squad and there should be no spammable panzerfaust ninjas.
6 Jun 2021, 09:47 AM
#935
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

Medium tanks are not snare with single faust for years now.
6 Jun 2021, 10:52 AM
#936
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jun 2021, 09:47 AMVipper
Medium tanks are not snare with single faust for years now.

You can have more then 1 grenadier in camo since the dawn of time for this game.

If you have paid ANY attention, you would actually realize that this is the exact reason for the change.
6 Jun 2021, 11:03 AM
#937
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1217

Cool, when is the anti tank partisan camo going to be nerfed?

This change just takes a perfectly fine ability out of the game.
6 Jun 2021, 11:29 AM
#938
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


You can have more then 1 grenadier in camo since the dawn of time for this game.

And camo has been available from the "the dawn of time for this game" even when 1 faust could snare a vehicle and it caused no issues.


If you have paid ANY attention, you would actually realize that this is the exact reason for the change.

The reason given in patch notes is simply different.

Grenadiers and Jaeger Command Squad
The range at which Grenadiers and the JCS can be detected by non-detector units have been increased. The reason for this change is to make it harder for mainline infantry that are available in numbers to remain completely hidden compared to specialists like MG 42s and Panzergrenadiers.

Self camouflage detection radius from 4 to 20
6 Jun 2021, 11:36 AM
#939
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

While it makes some sence that Grenadiers camo is somehow justified to be worst since they are basic unit, imo 20 range detection was just an overkill.

Especially for JCS, this one is just idiotic, because only 1 of them are awaible and it can count as an elite inf.

It just look like, a soft nerf to a meta commander, but instead of ajusting it, dev team for some unknown reason decided to mess with the perfectly fine ability or at least the one noone really complained about, especially on grenadiers and JCS.
6 Jun 2021, 11:43 AM
#940
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jun 2021, 11:29 AMVipper

And camo has been available from the "the dawn of time for this game" even when 1 faust could snare a vehicle and it caused no issues.

It was "hidden OP" until it became meta, just as you've called many allied abilities and units in the past.
Cope.

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jun 2021, 11:29 AMVipper

The reason given in patch notes is simply different.

Grenadiers and Jaeger Command Squad
The range at which Grenadiers and the JCS can be detected by non-detector units have been increased. The reason for this change is to make it harder for mainline infantry that are available in numbers to remain completely hidden compared to specialists like MG 42s and Panzergrenadiers.

Self camouflage detection radius from 4 to 20


The premise is the same.
You're not allowed to make all of your cheap, spammable mainline into infiltration army.

You don't exactly have 4+ specialist units of the same type.

And inb4 you try to strawman it into PTRS cons, the last time more then 1 was used was then their PTRS still affected infantry and team weapons.
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SHOUT IT OUT!

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Osinyagov: Suddenly, coh2 is slowly dying, but you can play it, playerbase still big enough
09 Apr 2025, 17:00 PM
Osinyagov: Wow, i remember you from zansi and vali videos, good old memories
09 Apr 2025, 16:58 PM
Beinhard: o7 miss this game and zansi
09 Apr 2025, 14:09 PM
Lady Xenarra: @Willy Pete The lack of April Fools this year is odd lol
02 Apr 2025, 01:34 AM
Willy Pete: @Rosbone not dead yet. when that happens the font will switch to Papyrus :*(
02 Apr 2025, 00:16 AM
dasheepeh: it was an honor guys :guyokay:
01 Apr 2025, 20:34 PM
aerafield: yeah I already prepared my "Can't believe there's comic mode for the 10 daily visitors even on this April 1st" :guyokay:
01 Apr 2025, 20:29 PM
Rosbone: @dasheepeh I guess that means this site is officially dead :guyokay:
01 Apr 2025, 20:19 PM
dasheepeh: no comic sans font for april 1st this year?
01 Apr 2025, 19:56 PM
Willy Pete: @Lady Xenarra this you? https://i.imgflip.com/3e4thi.jpg
01 Apr 2025, 02:53 AM
Lady Xenarra: Does anyone else think that USF needs buffs? It feels like they’re on life support sometimes
01 Apr 2025, 02:36 AM
Willy Pete: @Rosbone Ahh I missed that memo. I still think its a bad decision though. Adds frustration for players and isnt gonna make them that much money
27 Mar 2025, 15:46 PM
Rosbone: It is also good they left it free until after the free to play weekend. Points for that.
27 Mar 2025, 09:34 AM
Rosbone: But I agree, the cost to get a full decent Coh game pushing $115 US is not the best idea. Especially when it needs so much more work for casuals.
27 Mar 2025, 09:32 AM
Rosbone: To be fair, it was a thank you to early fans right? They said it was not free for long and it would become a pay DLC at some point.
27 Mar 2025, 09:30 AM
Willy Pete: Re-releasing free DLC so they can charge new players money for it. Brilliant marketing strategy :clap:
27 Mar 2025, 04:31 AM
Soheil: Coh2 still broken server ?
25 Mar 2025, 18:27 PM
Rosbone: Congrats to Relic. Looks like Coh3 has finally usurped Coh2 s the popular Coh. You smell terrific. :snfQuinn:.
24 Mar 2025, 02:46 AM
Nickbn: and again someone else replies. I mean come on guys. Give @adamírcz a chance
22 Mar 2025, 14:00 PM
Willy Pete: @Nickbn you didn't ask a question, and this is a chat box...
20 Mar 2025, 13:11 PM
Nickbn: @Rosbone it's incredibly rude to speak on someone elses behalf, especially when a question is directly adressed to them. I understand your passion for the subject at hand but I want to hear from him.
20 Mar 2025, 10:16 AM
Rosbone: @Nickbn No, I am just saying people should not be using any Relic owned forum since they have proven they ban anyone who says true things about Coh3.
18 Mar 2025, 19:01 PM
Nickbn: @Rosbone do you speak on his behalf? I didn't know. In that case keep us updated please.
18 Mar 2025, 16:47 PM
Rosbone: #RelicModdedEchoChamber
16 Mar 2025, 17:54 PM
Rosbone: @Nickbn True except, the only people on the Relic Discord/Reddit/Steam are brain washed monkey zealots. They wont even understand what @adamírcz is talking about. Anyone else is banned.
16 Mar 2025, 17:54 PM
Nickbn: @adamírcz might be a better idea to voice this to relic directly than to voice it here, in a shoutbox of a nearly deade fansite #justsaying...
16 Mar 2025, 16:36 PM
webdesign-muenchen-w: @Rosbone it is sick
14 Mar 2025, 22:09 PM
aerafield: @adamírcz aren't the first two disconnects free every day?
14 Mar 2025, 19:26 PM
Rosbone: It is so unlike Relic to punish its fans and community.
14 Mar 2025, 12:07 PM
adamírcz: So, I just got a leaver penalty without even getting onto the loading screen because of the game disconnecting, bravo Relic
14 Mar 2025, 10:45 AM
Rosbone: It is an indicator of the very short sighted capitalist view that plagues any company where leadership does not understand the product.
13 Mar 2025, 20:00 PM
Rosbone: They dont care about Coh3 or Coh in general. They are just trying to grab cash by ripping off the small user base they have.
13 Mar 2025, 19:58 PM
Rosbone: Just making mistake after mistake after mistake.
13 Mar 2025, 19:57 PM
Rosbone: It is clear they crapped out an unfinished game. And are now barely supporting it as they make new smaller games. Coh3 is stillborn. It will be meh for at least another 2-4 years. Meaning they killed the whole franchise instead of growing it.
13 Mar 2025, 19:56 PM
Rosbone: For a thing they could fix in minutes. Literally minutes.
13 Mar 2025, 19:53 PM
Rosbone: If I did play coh3 and was mainly a skirmish player, I would be pissed and probably stop playing. And it has been like this since release. Why? I would not tell my friends to buy a game I am not even playing. Lost sales and angered users.
13 Mar 2025, 19:53 PM
Rosbone: I am just saddened how Relic keeps hurting themselves by not fixing 5 minute things like menus. Why anger users with stuff that could be fixed in minutes???
13 Mar 2025, 19:50 PM
Rosbone: I was wondering why people think I was raging. I think it was when I said "because coh3 sucks so bad". That was not my opinion. Just a general feel from top players/streamers. I dont play Coh3 and have NO opinion of it.
13 Mar 2025, 19:48 PM
OKSpitfire: You can rage as often as you like btw, you usually manage to make it pretty funny.
12 Mar 2025, 11:18 AM
Rosbone: So it was a systemic failure across multiple disciplines and check points.
12 Mar 2025, 04:30 AM
Rosbone: Knowing how companies work, I imagine a new hire making the menus. The API they are using is complicated and things were hard to figure out. But at some point QA or management should have addressed these things. Usually within 6 months of starting.
12 Mar 2025, 04:29 AM
Rosbone: @theekvn I dont hate Coh3 or Relic. I just dont understand how you work on Coh3 for like 7 years and the menu system is worse than if a Programming 101 student made it. Feel free to explain it to me.
12 Mar 2025, 04:07 AM
theekvn: + 33% dmg rear hit was best deal ever.
12 Mar 2025, 04:00 AM
theekvn: KT just need fuel debuf from 15% to 50%, Ele arc of fire- aim time improve and they are good to go
12 Mar 2025, 03:59 AM
theekvn: and please Rosbone,I know you hate Coh3 to the bone due to your drama with relic, Still, Can you give a proper point of view instead of raging ?.
12 Mar 2025, 03:54 AM
theekvn: you rather go 76 to unity Whizbang 2.0 or go home.
12 Mar 2025, 03:52 AM
theekvn: also US tier 4 is 145f and Sherman pen 140 nerf is too much.
12 Mar 2025, 03:52 AM
theekvn: Whizbang lock behind CP, meanwhile stuka is techtree progress
12 Mar 2025, 03:51 AM
KoRneY: @aerafield It's possible that it is underpriced for what it is capable of now, no need to go full retard and take it immediately as a massive problem. It costs 60 more MP than a pz.3 and in 2v2 the barrage can be quite strong.
07 Mar 2025, 19:14 PM
OKSpitfire: I do like that they made the Stuka more expensive instead of nerfing it into the ground though. Found it pretty unsatisfying to use before that buff a while back....
06 Mar 2025, 16:35 PM
aerafield: USF already is by far the shittiest faction in terms of countering blobbing and turtling, now they supposedly have one overtuned tool locked behind a BG and it's immediately a massive problem?
06 Mar 2025, 13:33 PM
Lady Xenarra: I think post-2.0 Whizbang buffs, the price is too low esp since the Stuka got nerfed in cost too. Speaking of which, how exactly is one supposed to successfully dive this Sherman in disguise? Med tank spam running into SSFs?
06 Mar 2025, 12:13 PM
OKSpitfire: A powerful, doctrinal unit that outperforms stock stuff? Colour me shocked! :P
06 Mar 2025, 10:49 AM
Willy Pete: Cool you wanna lose your stock lategame arty too then?
06 Mar 2025, 03:20 AM
Lady Xenarra: WTB Whizzbang for DAK instead of Stuka, 5 fuel cheape, 60MP more expensive and next to impossible to dive. :rofl:
05 Mar 2025, 20:27 PM
Rosbone: It is also hard to expect Relic to help Coh2 when they cant even make working menus in Coh3 yet, 2 years after release and at full price+ for DLCs. Thats like asking a fish to do calculus.
04 Mar 2025, 02:58 AM
Rosbone: But this last patch has made good progress for grabbing players. All we can hope is Coh3 gets to Coh2s quality level before everyone abandons the franchise. Its Relic so they will completely f*%k it up as usual. But its a hope/cope.
04 Mar 2025, 02:55 AM
Rosbone: Relic wants Coh2 to fail so players will migrate to Coh3. It is hard to blame them since Coh3 sucks so bad. It needs all the help it can get.
04 Mar 2025, 02:53 AM

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