Commander Update Beta 2021 - Ostheer Feedback

Look, I just don't understand the whole idea of reducing the camo to a measly extra 10 meters without being seen. How useful is that actually? For LMG grenadiers, its counter productive, you don't *want* squads to get that close to you before you open fire. Why would you want to?

Well it's probably a compromise. It alleviates the faust issue without fixing it completely. Uncovering them earlier is always better obviously. Mainline camo shouldn't be a thing at all but at least this prevents g43 grens from benefitting which

Well it's probably a compromise. It alleviates the faust issue without fixing it completely. Uncovering them earlier is always better obviously. Mainline camo shouldn't be a thing at all but at least this prevents g43 grens from benefitting which

The theory holds little water.

A) Jaeger Infantry Doctrine is a very popular commander and it should brought in line with other commander but camo is actually one of its weakest abilities.

b) Nerfing camo while buffing G43 for grenadier and especially their alpha strike from camo with grenade at the same time makes even less sense.

c) When it comes to camo Grenadier have on of the worse version and if there is an issue with camo infatry that has more do with infatry that can navigate the battlefield cloak than with infatry that have to lay in ambush.

This change makes even less sense than the original change to bundle camo and sprint in the first place.

Look, I just don't understand the whole idea of reducing the camo to a measly extra 10 meters without being seen. How useful is that actually? For LMG grenadiers, its counter productive, you don't *want* squads to get that close to you before you open fire. Why would you want to? So you have lower DPS and drop models quicker? There's no point. But for G43, it's not nearly enough. You can't get off a cheeky nade nor do they move into your highest DPS range before you're revealed.

I just don't understand the idea behind it. It makes more sense when the balance notes say that it's because grenadiers are so readily available, but for this sprint/snare combo that everyone is talking about, the change does nothing.

Exactly
Might as well remove it if it's locked from g43
At this point it would be better to keep it just for Panzergrenadiers and team weapons and make it a commando style camo for Panzergrens, maybe bundle with it G43s specifically for Panzergrens so that encirclement and storm get the buff they deserve

but for this sprint/snare combo that everyone is talking about, the change does nothing.

The change is meant to give the opponent the opportunity to screen their vehicles with infantry, enabling them to detect camouflaged Grens before coming into faust range.

What I'm requesting is the community dev team instead of doing what Sander said about not elaborating on decisions regarding the balance and design of the game that they are making like good little politicians be made more public and transparent.

That's not what I said at all. I spend half my free time elaborating things on the forums. Others try as well. I said we can't elaborate or respond to everything. It's not a full time job.

And again, it's also you who is missing or ignoring things, because I've explained before why Relic didn't want the USF base and why the Sturmtiger definitely does not need a mobile B4 redesign.

People here questioned the Gren camo change. I elaborated the thoughts behind the change and I've communicated that the team has noticed this feedback and will be having another look at it. I don't know how much more transparent you'd like me to be here.

The change is meant to give the opponent the opportunity to screen their vehicles with infantry, enabling them to detect camouflaged Grens before coming into faust range.



That's not what I said at all. I spend half my free time elaborating things on the forums. Others try as well. I said we can't elaborate or respond to everything. It's not a full time job.

And again, it's also you who is missing or ignoring things, because I've explained before why Relic didn't want the USF base and why the Sturmtiger definitely does not need a mobile B4 redesign.

People here questioned the Gren camo change. I elaborated the thoughts behind the change and I've communicated that the team has noticed this feedback and will be having another look at it. I don't know how much more transparent you'd like me to be here.

As a modder myself I try to elaborate as much as possible as well.

And no, the USF base was not explained while the Sturmtiger is purely your own opinion when taking into account that after it's 3rd or 4th attempt at a fix it's still a meme unit and it will remain so but I won't bring back that argument here.

Lastly, I would expect for things to be put up for discussion BEFORE they are actually implemented, not after, with the simple excuse being a high ranking 1v1 replay.

Also before I forget, you will not explain why not just this patch but others before it as well had a big window between it's last beta/mod preview update and time of release with having new changes as well. The excuse for this one was that Relic wanted to push the update through, so what about the rest?

Because that's certainly not transparency.

And no, the USF base was not explained

Are you serious? The fact that you apparently missed it doesn't mean that it wasn't. I explained in one of the feedback threads at the time that Relic looked at the mod together with its creator Sneakeye and that they both agreed it was not feasible to implement it into the live game. You can go look it up.

Lastly, I would expect for things to be put up for discussion BEFORE they are actually implemented, not after, with the simple excuse being a high ranking 1v1 replay.

You got to discuss 99% of changes before implementation. You're just blowing this way out of proportion. And please read, this was definitely not decided based on one single 1v1 replay? Where did you even get that from? I said that many (high level) 1v1 players expressed their concerns about Jaeger Infantry, and that the power level of this commander was definitely being questioned by the broader 1v1 scene, just via several different channels other than this public forum. In response to someone here saying this change "came out of nowhere".

Also before I forget, you will not explain why not just this patch but others before it as well had a big window between it's last beta/mod preview update and time of release with having new changes as well. The excuse for this one was that Relic wanted to push the update through, so what about the rest?

Because I think it should be dead obvious that there's always been a long period between the final public iteration of a balance mod and building the actual patch, and that in the meantime inevitably some additional changes get thought of and added or scrapped? Drop the tin foil hat, there is no conspiracy of willingly keeping out the public or whatever. The fact that there have been extensive public tests for every single patch over the past like 3-4 years prove that. It's purely practical. Most if not all games' dev teams that work with public tests do this, and it has simply been amplified a bit here because patching used to take a lot longer than it does for most regular games for several (hopefully obvious) reasons. Otherwise patches would end up in an endless preview loops.

I found the following video much more informative about game balance:



TL;DR, games can't be balanced by looking at stats alone.

While really interesting, i think context matters when discussing different genres of games or even games that are in the same category but play completely different. And let's not muddy the discussion when we have to consider when dev/upper management want to release new content that MUST be "interesting" for sales rather than balanced/fair for the game (ahem Akuma/Leeroy or in case of LoL Aphelios).

That's not even considering what each head game design philosophy is for each title.


PD: even on the video they mention that things above 54% means they screw up hard. Good lord what would happen if they see our game with 20% WR diffference.

Are you serious? The fact that you apparently missed it doesn't mean that it wasn't. I explained in one of the feedback threads at the time that Relic looked at the mod together with its creator Sneakeye and that they both agreed it was not feasible to implement it into the live game. You can go look it up.



You got to discuss 99% of changes before implementation. You're just blowing this way out of proportion. And please read, this was definitely not decided based on one single 1v1 replay? Where did you even get that from? I said that many (high level) 1v1 players expressed their concerns about Jaeger Infantry, and that the power level of this commander was definitely being questioned by the broader 1v1 scene, just via several different channels other than this public forum. In response to someone here saying this change "came out of nowhere".



Because I think it should be dead obvious that there's always been a long period between the final public iteration of a balance mod and building the actual patch, and that in the meantime inevitably some additional changes get thought of and added or scrapped? Drop the tin foil hat, there is no conspiracy of willingly keeping out the public or whatever. The fact that there have been extensive public tests for every single patch over the past like 3-4 years prove that. It's purely practical. Most if not all games' dev teams that work with public tests do this, and it has simply been amplified a bit here because patching used to take a lot longer than it does for most regular games for several (hopefully obvious) reasons. Otherwise patches would end up in an endless preview loops.

Ah yes, go find the explanation in a buried topic some years ago, very nice answer indeed.

And yeah let's just exclude most of the community on something a few people brought up and then be shocked when people say that it came out of the blue, which it did.

The truth is that you're again making up some excuse as to not keep the community updated and in the loop, "because the others do it too".

Bullshit, it could have been said that there are some experimental things being tested internally or something as to bring in some discussion from the larger community's side as well, instead it was just said that there were some technical issues preventing the patch from releasing and nothing else.

That was YOUR choice that you did it so, not some out of this world force making you do it. You guys chose not to keep the community updated, and don't tell me Relic didn't allow you to or whatever because you've been using them enough as a scapegoat as it is. They can't be blamed for absolutely everything that you guys do or whatever is wrong.

Ah yes, go find the explanation in a buried topic some years ago, very nice answer indeed.

This is the reason which I sent to a member of the patch team some time ago:

The implementation which I use is definitely not fit for the live game. It starts with the British base stamper and spawns/deletes objects through faction requirements. That can easily break when using cheat mode. The Brit base is sometimes even visible when the match is waiting for all players to start and a small explosion can be heard which is used to remove sandbags from the stamper.
I would gladly add this design to vanilla, but that requires a solid implementation which I can't provide.

This is the reason which I sent to a member of the patch team some time ago:

Well then, I guess not everybody likes being a good little politician.

Thank you for at least providing some clarity. I appreciate at least one person trying to elaborate.

I find it weird that commandos being able to instagib squads with their 5 high dps smgs and also being strong enough to charge into any squad isn't a problem but ninja fausting is.

I find it weird that commandos being able to instagib squads with their 5 high dps smgs and also being strong enough to charge into any squad isn't a problem but ninja fausting is.

A tank is more expensive then that pio you sent to a point and forgot about.

A tank is more expensive then that pio you sent to a point and forgot about.

And soooo.......... That is relevant because.

And soooo.......... That is relevant because.

Because balance team decided a tank is more valuable and impactful then infantry squad and there should be no spammable panzerfaust ninjas.

Medium tanks are not snare with single faust for years now.

Medium tanks are not snare with single faust for years now.

You can have more then 1 grenadier in camo since the dawn of time for this game.

If you have paid ANY attention, you would actually realize that this is the exact reason for the change.

Cool, when is the anti tank partisan camo going to be nerfed?

This change just takes a perfectly fine ability out of the game.

You can have more then 1 grenadier in camo since the dawn of time for this game.

And camo has been available from the "the dawn of time for this game" even when 1 faust could snare a vehicle and it caused no issues.

If you have paid ANY attention, you would actually realize that this is the exact reason for the change.

The reason given in patch notes is simply different.

Grenadiers and Jaeger Command Squad
The range at which Grenadiers and the JCS can be detected by non-detector units have been increased. The reason for this change is to make it harder for mainline infantry that are available in numbers to remain completely hidden compared to specialists like MG 42s and Panzergrenadiers.

Self camouflage detection radius from 4 to 20

While it makes some sence that Grenadiers camo is somehow justified to be worst since they are basic unit, imo 20 range detection was just an overkill.

Especially for JCS, this one is just idiotic, because only 1 of them are awaible and it can count as an elite inf.

It just look like, a soft nerf to a meta commander, but instead of ajusting it, dev team for some unknown reason decided to mess with the perfectly fine ability or at least the one noone really complained about, especially on grenadiers and JCS.

And camo has been available from the "the dawn of time for this game" even when 1 faust could snare a vehicle and it caused no issues.

It was "hidden OP" until it became meta, just as you've called many allied abilities and units in the past.
Cope.

The reason given in patch notes is simply different.

Grenadiers and Jaeger Command Squad
The range at which Grenadiers and the JCS can be detected by non-detector units have been increased. The reason for this change is to make it harder for mainline infantry that are available in numbers to remain completely hidden compared to specialists like MG 42s and Panzergrenadiers.

Self camouflage detection radius from 4 to 20

The premise is the same.
You're not allowed to make all of your cheap, spammable mainline into infiltration army.

You don't exactly have 4+ specialist units of the same type.

And inb4 you try to strawman it into PTRS cons, the last time more then 1 was used was then their PTRS still affected infantry and team weapons.