Upcoming Comander Update - Wishes

With the balance patch hopefully coming out soon, the update after that will focus on commanders.

While I don't want to push the balance team already right into the next task, it might be a good idea to already start the discussion early and give the community the opportunity to voice which commanders and doctrinal units they would like to be reworked.

This thread is not meant to be a balance thread to judge the assessment as wishes of other users, how feasible these are or if they would fit into the gameplay etc etc. So stay civil and don't get into endless discussion of good and bad suggestions. Again, it is about giving the "people in charge" of the next patch an idea what to focus on according to the community. Also, whenever needed, take into account the latest iteration of the balance patch, e.g. Osttruppen already get tweaked, so base suggestions if necessary on the latest iteration of this patch. I also expect everyone to do a bit of research and check which commanders are affected.


Apart from that, feel free to post which commanders, abilities and commander units you would love to see reworked and how! It is not needed to suggest a completely reworked commander - suggestions for single abilities/units are fine.
BUT: Please structure the post accordingly so it stays readable and provide as much detail as possible or needed.


I'll also note Sanders post:

Just to push this discussion into the most productive way, here are a few guidelines for suggestions:
- no new units;
- no unit swapping between factions;
- changes should be as minimal as possible;
- new abilities are possible, but nothing crazy (think about mostly copying existing abilities);
- no total reworks of commanders, but multiple ability swaps or replacements per commander are possible if needed.

Broad goals:
- tone down meta commanders;
- increase the amount of viable/competitive commanders by buffing underperforming units/abilities or by replacing units/abilities;
- increase diversity for Ostheer and Soviet commanders in terms of viability and theme because of the relatively high amount of overlap for commanders in those factions.

My only desire to get a real Soviet Paratrooper commander: to get real skin and parachuting for the Soviet paratroopers. The game looks like we are playing Mod. Change to get unique abilities of the Airborne Forces.

Commando seems a bit too powerful on certain maps, maybe remove sniper cloak and give normal cloak?

Please make certain doctrines weaker so there is more variety in team games. I can't stand playing vs Jäger Armour, Artillery Regiment, both ISU doctrines, soviet airbone and both USF calliope doctrines every single game. Make more doctrines viable by nerfing OP ones.

Please make certain doctrines weaker so there is more variety in team games. I can't stand playing vs Jäger Armour, Artillery Regiment, both ISU doctrines, soviet airbone and both USF calliope doctrines every single game. Make more doctrines viable by nerfing OP ones.

I agree and it is nice to see that my suggestions from 2018 are being suggested by other people.


Some other info from the same time (so they are not update):
https://www.coh2.org/topic/81491/suggestions-for-commanders-revamp

https://www.coh2.org/topic/81270/commander-rework-approach

Going to be inviting trouble with this one but both commander Flares are in need of some kind of counterplay. Usually just forced to twiddle your thumbs in the UKF case and start counting for that red flare. Or maybe they're both considered fine, idk.

[Insert comment about Calliopes]

Considering that The KV2 overpeforms compared to other heavies and stalling for him is still some kind of solid option, id like to see this general changes in the heavy tank department.

Imo 12 cp are a too harsh nerf considering the peformance right now.

Either make them stronger, so they somewhat fit their timing or reduce the cp requirement to 10.

Also bring the kv2 in line ewith other heavies.

1) Caliope being 3 shots instead of 4, aswell as PIV shouldnt bounce of it. Considering all other rocket arty units, can be one-shotted and even counter-artyed, cali would still remain the strongest of them in terms of survivability.

2) Rework\Replacements of relief\rapid. There are only 4 commanders with this abilities (2 for each side), so it shoudnt be hard.

3) Removing Stuka\IL-2 from ISU\Elephant commanders

4) KV-1\KV-8 should have CP requrement, because for what they provide, they hit the field very early into the game.

5) OKW luftwaffe commander should be looked at. Fallshimjaegers are imo awaible too early and they are too strong for their timing, while the rest of the commander abilities are complete trash.

6) AVRE should be tonned down a bit, because it has no place in CoH2 in its corrent state.

Guys, you should check either:

https://coh2.win/

https://coh2index.com/index.html

Pretty easy to look at commanders and if you click on any ability it shows all commanders with that skill/unit.

I imagine for OKW the changes are going to be to Spec Ops to modify Radio Silence (Potentially to the ambush camouflage idea?) and Breakthrough for teamgame players since it's just objectively the only real choice most of the time. Other than that most OKW doctrines are in a pretty good spot and provide unique and interesting dynamics.

As for USF the only real doctrine that's objectively outclassed right now is Rifle Company since it only provides low impact and/or redundant things that other doctrines provide. Mechanized (even post-nerf), Armor, Airbourne, Urban Assault, Tac Support, Recon Support all have their own merits and are all worth using and provide significant upsides. Infantry Company is the premier team game doctrine I believe (I could be wrong I don't play teamgames but that's my assumption) so I guess that just leaves Heavy Cavalry as a bit underwhelming now? Rangers can be gotten in Urban Assault with a better toolset around them. RFD is good but can't carry on it's own, and the Pershing is so-so, Smoke is abundant in the USF arsenal and combined arms is very expensive.

My only desire to get a real Soviet Paratrooper commander: to get real skin and parachuting for the Soviet paratroopers. The game looks like we are playing Mod. Change to get unique abilities of the Airborne Forces.

Not possible due to limited modding tools and I'm certain Relic won't care to add it.

Commando seems a bit too powerful on certain maps, maybe remove sniper cloak and give normal cloak?

Use 222 as Ostheer or Kubelwagen as OKW, these units provide greater stealth detection radius plus at vet 1 they both receive a map hack ability than can reveal commandos on the minimap on an even greater radius. Recon planes can also reveal them anytime and the ultimate counter is obersoldaten with infrared STGs.

Going to be inviting trouble with this one but both commander Flares are in need of some kind of counterplay. Usually just forced to twiddle your thumbs in the UKF case and start counting for that red flare. Or maybe they're both considered fine, idk.

[Insert comment about Calliopes]

Imo these flare abilities should be restricted to be used by certain units (like tommies and volks), similar to how soviets deploy them, this should make them less annoying.

1) Caliope being 3 shots instead of 4, aswell as PIV shouldnt bounce of it. Considering all other rocket arty units, can be one-shotted and even counter-artyed, cali would still remain the strongest of them in terms of survivability.

2) Rework\Replacements of relief\rapid. There are only 4 commanders with this abilities (2 for each side), so it shoudnt be hard.

3) Removing Stuka\IL-2 from ISU\Elephant commanders

4) KV-1\KV-8 should have CP requrement, because for what they provide, they hit the field very early into the game.

5) OKW luftwaffe commander should be looked at. Fallshimjaegers are imo awaible too early and they are too strong for their timing, while the rest of the commander abilities are complete trash.

6) AVRE should be tonned down a bit, because it has no place in CoH2 in its corrent state.

1) agree
2) agree
3) agree (tho I will miss them at the same time)
4) haven't seen any lately in team games, can't really tell
5) imo Falls should be reworked to be more reliant on their stealth ability, similar to Commandos and Stormtroopers.
6) imo AVRE is fine

I agree with Rifle Company, its main issue is imo that it is very munitions heavy, limiting how much one can actually use all the abilities. Perhaps it could use a supply truck based on the wc-51's model that provides extra resources, similar to the Opel Blitz.
Also, there was a proposal that some of the vehicles from Mechanized should be moved to other doctrines.

__________

As for my two cents I would definitely recommend reworking UKF advanced emplacements regiment, removing the health upgrade and counter barrage (it's mostly useless anyway) and adding the unused 25 pounder howitzer emplacement and valentine command tank (for its coordinated barrage ability) in their place.

Nerf Skillplanes across the board

20 to 30 seconds delay before they actually start acquiring targets

Just to push this discussion into the most productive way, here are a few guidelines for suggestions:
- no new units;
- no unit swapping between factions;
- changes should be as minimal as possible;
- new abilities are possible, but nothing crazy (think about mostly copying existing abilities);
- no total reworks of commanders, but multiple ability swaps or replacements per commander are possible if needed.

Broad goals:
- tone down meta commanders;
- increase the amount of viable/competitive commanders by buffing underperforming units/abilities or by replacing units/abilities;
- increase diversity for Ostheer and Soviet commanders in terms of viability and theme because of the relatively high amount of overlap for commanders in those factions.

Outside of the obvious changes which are more or less guaranteed to be changed:

-Replacing Stuka Dive bomb/IL2 bombing strikes from ISU/Ele commanders
-KV1 (probable the next meta after this patch)
-Radio silence
-Spec Ops Flares and probable UKF flare
-Airborne IL2 Rocket strafe pen nerf



OH:
Changes to
-Command PIV
-Relief Infantry
-Osttruppen Reserves (Mobile Def)

Abilities which can be distribute to weaken commanders and are only used in single one atm
-Stuka Flaming bombing run
-Single pass AT stuka strafe
-Single pass AI stuka strafe

Commanders which need an update to current standards
-Luftwaffe
-Close Air support


SU:
Changes to
-Guard Airborne troops. I still think one way to nerf the IL2 rocket strafe without touching the ability is to swap it with the IL2 AI strafe and make it vet 0. Generally improve this Guard and make it a single squad (similar to OH Jaeger Command squad).
-Rapid Conscription
-120mm small changes to cost/vet/pop
-Fix to IL2 single strafe run
-Spy Network

Abilities which can be given
-IL2 single strafe run
-Small AT mines

Commander update:
-Partisans
-Shock Army

TIGER/IS2
I still think that they shouldn't gain range at vet 2 regardless of their current performance.


Other 3 factions later

Not possible due to limited modding tools and I'm certain Relic won't care to add it.

This is still their game. Then let them deign to do so that their game would not look like a modification for some game. Oh yeah .. fans are not Microsoft, they can be ignored.

[...]
Commander update:
-Partisans
-Shock Army

Agreed on Partisans. Combining AT and AI Partisans into a single unit that can upgrade instantly with either SMG, Molotovs and Grenades or Panzerschreck and AT Grenades seems like a good starting point, as it would free up an ability slot. Plus, it would buff to Reserve Army too.

However, I bet that either Anti-Infatry Tactics or Terror Tactics will get a refresh instead of Shock Army, as those two share 3 identical abilities between. I think that's a record right now.

EDIT: My bad, Ostheer's Fortified Armor and Blitzkrieg Doctrines also share 3 abilities (Panzer Tactician, Stuka Recon Overflight and Command Tank).

I'll bite assuming they use previous format of 2 commanders per faction and per Sander's guidelines. I'll also include a general list of abilities that should be looked at if it's something in another commander.


UKF - Special Weapons & Advanced Emplacements

Show Spoiler

USF Rifle Company & Misc. Fixes
Show Spoiler

OKW -Fortifications & Misc. Fixes


Show Spoiler

SOV Anti Infantry & Combined Arms

Show Spoiler

Make Sturmtiger great again.

On teamgame USF feel like half faction without the Calliope, you can do whatever your want to balance other commanders but it doesn't change the fact that you can't breakup team weapon wall that are more than common on teamgame without it.

This is mostly focused on team games, my core expertise.

1. Increase the reliability of off-maps. They should consistently hit the center target at least once during the call-in. For example, 240mm barrage should hit the smoke-point with at least 1 shot.

2. Remove consistent target off-map call-ins from Heavy Tank and Howitzer doctrines. Heavy Tanks are soft-countered by Howitzers, and Howitzers should not hard counter other Howitzers, that may include removing Counter Barrage from leFH, normalizing howitzers. RA and Infantry may need to lose their consistent off-maps, but SPH are a different beast from fixed howitzers.

3. Move the last non-heavy-tank call-in vehicles to buildable. Heavy tank timings are easily broadcast and not generally used to counter active changes to the field, compared to emergency Valentine etc.

4. All team-game oriented commanders require AT, aggressive blob control, team weapon control, and scouting or consistent off-map. Current top-tier commanders do all of them. Elephant, Jadgtiger, and ISU commanders do all of the above, USF Urban Assault does all but the consistent off-map, UKF... doesn't really, instead crutching on super efficient Comets/Crocs, uncounterable flares, and large IS contingents. Proper non-IS blob control would allow double bren IS to be toned down. HMGs die before suppressing large blobs.

Ensuring more commanders have equal amounts of these core tools would really open up the Team meta.