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[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

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18 Dec 2020, 15:42 PM
#701
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1


Why do the ISU doctrines have so much strong stuff in them like Shocks, Guards, Mark Target, Il2. Just too much for one single doctrine.


Because this is soviet design. Half of their unit roster is locked behind commanders, and any commander can be pretty much viewed as an one time unlock for your army, rather then a "chose" or "bonus" for your army.

In ideal situation, both guards\shocks should have always been an tier upgrade simular to AEC and Bofors, one excluding the other.
18 Dec 2020, 16:44 PM
#702
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279


Molotov just had a flame crit back in the day, the same way all flame weapons did. Thats why it was so long to throw, because it potentually could have inta wipe few models.

Question is, why in a gods name its still isnt buffed, because flame crits gone like ages ago. Its also fun to see that we have EXCACT same ability for USF now, but with normal throwing time.

a normal throw time would do wonders for the ability. the fact that you are paying (or not paying, because its garbage) for an ability that it flat out worse than others in the same vein that are free is an enigma to me.
18 Dec 2020, 17:00 PM
#703
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


a normal throw time would do wonders for the ability.

It get normal speed as a vet bonus.


the fact that you are paying (or not paying, because its garbage) for an ability that it flat out worse than others in the same vein that are free is an enigma to me.

VG incendiary grenade where designed to as counter to maxim spam so it not the best thing to compare them with to begin with. (And you aware how I feel about them).
18 Dec 2020, 17:10 PM
#704
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 133

With how many nerfs have been given to the Soviet late game can we finally lower the cost of T4 for them? Knocking 10 fuel off the cost of the building would make it a lot easier for Soviets to get to their late game even though it’s been diminished a lot.

If the conscripts needs some sort of nerf then can we just bundle the Molotov and AT grenade into one package? It’s so awkward to get both and the Molotov is so bad for how much you have pay to get them. Bundling both could be a nice way to make conscripts a tiny bit better early on by being able to flush out garrisons while still getting the snare.

Also I still don’t understand to nerf to the SU-85 (and Jackson by extension). Why are we making Axis heavies even harder to deal with? Those things are already a nightmare in team games and making it so the Allied TDs have a harder time fighting back seems like a bad idea.
18 Dec 2020, 18:19 PM
#705
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Dec 2020, 14:23 PMVipper

Once more it there in patch notes in black and white.

"The intent isn’t for a full health T34 to ram other vehicles; instead, ram should be used when the T34 is near death to highlight its usage as a last resort type ability."


I actualy use ram almost exlusivly vs heavy tanks. Then i consider it good trade, vs mediums not so much as i loose 300 mp and 90 fuel and i need to replace that with a new t34 or something else. So to me its a heavy tank counter and not a last resort.

With the 50% hp threshold its dead before connecting. Its not a last resort or anything anymore, just free exp for the enemy and loosing fuel and mp for me.

Now if we give the t34 a very very small target size during ram it can dive without being destroyed before hitting the target, then its can work but change in v 2 is still pointles then, it wont be going any anytime anyway after ram.

I also do like giving t34 smoke rounds, this way your weak tanks have a chance to close in without getting wrecked before getting into effective range.
18 Dec 2020, 19:13 PM
#706
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Dec 2020, 17:00 PMVipper

It get normal speed as a vet bonus.
vet gating an ability yo have to pay specificly for isnt the way to go. until vet 2 the ability is effectivly useless and theres no reason for the performance to be neutered until its 3/4 the way through its vet. its even worse that you have to pay a full 20 mu for it in its neutered state. id sooner the ability be free with a long ass cooldown and improve it with vet if thats the way its going to be, that at least justifies an unlock cost and poor performance.

VG incendiary grenade where designed to as counter to maxim spam so it not the best thing to compare them with to begin with. (And you aware how I feel about them).

flame nade was added to counter garrisons as OKW struggled vs them, regardless the comparison is as clear as any in game due to the similarities between volks and cons. the flame nade would be ok on sturms, so that every garrison or engagement involving cover isnt instantly in favor of volks. the saturation of the flame nade also heavily impacts mgs whom often dont suppress quickly enough once there is any cover at all in their arcs. a dug in MG should be countering infantry, not countered by run of the mill mainlines crawling through a hail of gunfire.

long and short is the flame nade defies balance an molitovs are underpowered and overpriced when compared to literally anything similar in price point or performance.
.
18 Dec 2020, 19:39 PM
#707
avatar of Array
Donator 11

Posts: 609

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 23:07 PMKatitof

How would you know?
Axis gets both for free.


Can’t you find some other outlet for your issues. You are incredibly tedious
18 Dec 2020, 23:52 PM
#708
avatar of über alles

Posts: 85

so after the nerf of SU 76

Now they want nerf cons

those 2 units were too OP i guess
18 Dec 2020, 23:56 PM
#709
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Dec 2020, 19:39 PMArray


Can’t you find some other outlet for your issues. You are incredibly tedious

Can't you find a real argument?
You're just going to ignore the fact that 2 factions are getting these for free with tech and remaining 2 have AT and AI weapon unlocks paired at lower price then AT nade and molo combined and none of 4 factions in game needs any additional side cost for AT nades/fausts at all?
19 Dec 2020, 01:03 AM
#710
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Dec 2020, 09:58 AMVipper
Soviet have access to more doctrinal units in more commander than any other faction. The power level of these unit is above average and so is there cost efficiency. The "old design" come with certain perks.

That is because they were initially only allowed half their unit roster at one time and their Commander was to fill in the gaps. Even then, Ostheer has a larger number of Doctrine units than Soviet does, mostly offering expanded options ontop of their core units as opposed to Soviet's offering superior supplements to inferior core units. Ostheer doesn't need a Tiger or Elefant when such roles can be handled in another manner by a Sturmpanzer or Panther, but Soviet's may need the IS-2 because they have no stock breakthrough unit. OKW doesn't need Panzerfusiliers or Fallschirmjager when they Volksgrenadiers and Obersoldaten, but Soviet's might need Shock Troops or Airborne Guards because Conscripts and Penals cannot do those jobs.


jump backJump back to quoted post18 Dec 2020, 09:58 AMVipper
There is little indication that the Soviet faction is actually weaker the Ostheer/OKW. The only trouble it had so far was against osttruppen possibly even vs 5 men grenadiers and those doctrines are being nerf.

The indication would be pick-rates and win-rates, which are lower than others.


jump backJump back to quoted post18 Dec 2020, 12:02 PMVipper
T-34/76 was meant to be a flanker tank and that is why it penetration is increased with range more than other units.

If that is the case, then it is terribly equipped for it's job, inferior to even the better armored Panzer IV at flanking, due to the latter having Blitz. Base mobility is only marginally better than the Panzer IV or Sherman, and marginally worse than the Panther, which also has Blitz. I cannot see the Cromwell stats because it's broken on the website, but the British Forces Unit Guide says it's comparable to the M10, which is superior to all Medium Tanks, ontop of this it has Emergency War Speed.

Conclusion: The T-34's mobility is average and penetration is poor, which doesn't make it particularly good at flanking because it doesn't really move faster than other tanks and it cannot reliably penetrate the rear armor of a heavy tank as well as any other medium tank.


jump backJump back to quoted post18 Dec 2020, 14:23 PMVipper

Once more it there in patch notes in black and white.

"The intent isn’t for a full health T34 to ram other vehicles; instead, ram should be used when the T34 is near death to highlight its usage as a last resort type ability."

He is very clearly talking about Ram's original intent, which is at odds with what the current team believes it should be for.
19 Dec 2020, 05:59 AM
#711
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794

what is this ram original intent you talk about?

it is not counter elefant or jt. it was just a fun ability. it was used to ram panthers and p4 too.
coh is known to try fun ability.

this patch is to exactly solve just that, to discourage build t3476 to ram heavies. but to encourage more general use of t3476 culmulating to having a choice to use the ram as a last resort fun ability disabling axis tanks.

now we just need to make t3476 cheaper and earlier for more general use. it is not a bad tank. it is fast, can crush and troll infantry.
19 Dec 2020, 07:39 AM
#712
avatar of vgfgff

Posts: 177

One single commander gives conscripts SVT, therefore mod team have to nerf them?
so If I didn't pick that specific commander. That mean my cons will weaker and not worth to pick?
then META will comeback to PENAL again and there will have a TOPIC about nerf penal.
19 Dec 2020, 07:42 AM
#713
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Dec 2020, 05:59 AMmrgame2
what is this ram original intent you talk about?

it is not counter elefant or jt. it was just a fun ability. it was used to ram panthers and p4 too.
coh is known to try fun ability.

this patch is to exactly solve just that, to discourage build t3476 to ram heavies. but to encourage more general use of t3476 culmulating to having a choice to use the ram as a last resort fun ability disabling axis tanks.

now we just need to make t3476 cheaper and earlier for more general use. it is not a bad tank. it is fast, can crush and troll infantry.


The original intent of ram was to counter tanks. It came with big criticals on the rammed tank, including the possibility of immobilization.

Soviets originally had to choose between T3 and T4. T3 had M5/T70/T34, T4 had Katy/SU76/Su85. So if you went T3, you had to use ram as your counter to axis heavies because you could not back your T34 up with a SU85.

That was the original design reason for the ability.
19 Dec 2020, 09:05 AM
#714
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1




Yes and that is my point. If one continues to bring Soviet stock units inline with Ost/OKW stock units one will have to tone down Soviet access and power of doctrinal unit.


The indication would be pick-rates and win-rates, which are lower than others.

In WC2019 they did more then fine, the WC2020 only indicates that they have a hard time dealing with Osttruppen. One will have to wait and see how well Ostheer do after the nerf to Ostt and 5 men grenadiers to see how viable Ostheer actually are. And OKW did not do great either.





Well that was the initial design and it has been received many changes since then. Maybe they should try to return to the original design.



Conclusion: The T-34's mobility is average and penetration is poor, which doesn't make it particularly good at flanking because it doesn't really move faster than other tanks and it cannot reliably penetrate the rear armor of a heavy tank as well as any other medium tank.

You are missing the point I made. T-34/76 penetration increase more than most tank with range.
As of its penetration is high enough to reliably penetrate enemy rear armor.
100% vs PzIV j at range 40
100% vs PzIV at range 30
100% vs Panther at range 30


He is very clearly talking about Ram's original intent, which is at odds with what the current team believes it should be for.

Those patch notes are from Relic and they clearly say that T-34's ram intention is a last resort, which is exactly what the MOD team did.
I am not sure why we are even debating this since absolutely clear.

The fact is that the ram/off map combo is not good for the game. I would suggest to people that do not like the change to RAM to come up with better suggestions.

For instance I have suggest that RAM changes to "Ramming speed" an ability that makes the unit move faster in straight line. The ability then improve with veterancy and can be used to ram at vet 1. The effect and penetration of ram also scale with veterancy.
19 Dec 2020, 09:27 AM
#715
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

He is very clearly talking about Ram's original intent, which is at odds with what the current team believes it should be for.


It is not at odds at all, that quote is from 2014 patchnotes from the Relic dev team itself.

Not that it matters (vision and opinions change over time), but the current change is absolutely in line with the original intent behind T-34 ram.



Update April 24th, 2014

Ram
Currently, ram is being used as a crowd control measure to disable other vehicles. The intent isn’t for a full health T34 to ram other vehicles; instead, ram should be used when the T34 is near death to highlight its usage as a last resort type ability.

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/67/coh-2-changelog/p2
19 Dec 2020, 09:39 AM
#716
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1


It is not at odds at all, that quote is from 2014 patchnotes from the Relic dev team itself.

Not that it matters (vision and opinions change over time), but the current change is absolutely in line with the original intent behind T-34 ram.

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/67/coh-2-changelog/p2


Well, I stand corrected. Here I was thinking that the devs made ram the go-to anti tank ability for Soviets when they didn't give the faction the other tools required.
19 Dec 2020, 10:14 AM
#717
avatar of Darkpiatre

Posts: 282

Is it possible to make the ram cancel if something cause a damage engine during the ability (a faust) ?
19 Dec 2020, 10:20 AM
#718
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2



It is not at odds at all, that quote is from 2014 patchnotes from the Relic dev team itself.

Not that it matters (vision and opinions change over time), but the current change is absolutely in line with the original intent behind T-34 ram.




https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/67/coh-2-changelog/p2


Nonsense. Only the player decides when this last chance comes. It can be even when the tank has 100% HP, but a big tank wave is coming at the player, and you know for sure that the T-34 will be destroyed right now, but you can't make a ram. Let's stop these ridiculous changes already and just rework the T-34-76 and T-34-85 abilities and the first veterancy. A lot of time has already been spent on the ridiculous ram.
19 Dec 2020, 10:45 AM
#719
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

It is not at odds at all, that quote is from 2014 patchnotes from the Relic dev team itself.

Not that it matters (vision and opinions change over time), but the current change is absolutely in line with the original intent behind T-34 ram.

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/67/coh-2-changelog/p2


I had forgotten all about this. Fair enough then, I was wrong, the developers had elaborated on it in the past.

I would try to argue that in the grand scheme of things, the cheapest and easiest way to deal with a Heavy Panzer is sacrificing a T-34 and ~200 munitions does speak volumes for the effectiveness of other options. Rarely in this game is suiciding a unit the first resort, and their inability to fight an Elefant especially is something I remain concerned about. The Elefant cannot be countered by the SU-85, and T-34-76's take too long to kill it during a flank even if it is not supported (which it will always be supported). Maybe the answer is as simple as spamming as many SU-85's as possible..
19 Dec 2020, 11:03 AM
#720
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



I had forgotten all about this. Fair enough then, I was wrong, the developers had elaborated on it in the past.

I would try to argue that in the grand scheme of things, the cheapest and easiest way to deal with a Heavy Panzer is sacrificing a T-34 and ~200 munitions does speak volumes for the effectiveness of other options. Rarely in this game is suiciding a unit the first resort, and their inability to fight an Elefant especially is something I remain concerned about. The Elefant cannot be countered by the SU-85, and T-34-76's take too long to kill it during a flank even if it is not supported (which it will always be supported). Maybe the answer is as simple as spamming as many SU-85's as possible..

A Super heavy TD can not be countered by tanks and TD well that makes sense.

Imagine what would happened if allied stock TD counter counter every axis vehicles from Kubel to Elefant...
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