[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

Btw speaking of PTRS.

I've looked at its stats and here what they are:
Damage: 14
SNIP

I'm not sure about the tweaks you describe to PTRS but you're on to something with the penetration.

Soviets might need to have more diverse options to penetrate armour, as opposed to isolating single stronger ones.

E.g. consider a buff to 120mm mortar penetration. It'd fill a gap. It's call-in, so it won't be universal, and would contribute to the midgame in a more meaningful way against things like puma and luchs.

I just think the mod team needs to look at faction penetration overall, and see where small buffs can be made that can't result in spam or blobbing.

It's a nice idea but I think giving PTRS Penals more late game scaling (with a second +2x PTRS upgrade at T4) is better because then Soviets have good mobile infantry-based anti-tank. Dealing with Elefant/Jagdtiger + Panzerwerfers/Stukas in team games is so obnoxious because Ziss guns die to the Rocket Artillery and and SU-85's die to the heavy TD's. All Soviets can really do was ram cheese but now that's been heavily nerfed. Whereas both USF and British have much easier times with Bazookas and Piats as well as turreted Tank Destroyers that can flank. Having mobile squads with AT on Soviets gives a lot more potential and opens strategic options. A second PTRS upgrade at T4 allows for late game scaling without being too strong against LV's or Mediums in the mid game.

Because the main problem with PTRS as an AT weapon is reliability and micro. It's a defensive weapon that only punishes people who stay for a long time and are indecisive in regards of what they want to do. All other AT Infantry can just shoot a rocket and move while reloading. If for whatever reason the targets leaves range by the time the weapon finishes aiming you have to repeat the process.

What makes Penals threatening to an Ele/JT is their AT satchel not their PTRS.


I think there are 2 complete different issues.

1- PTRS doesn't make Soviets have a mobile AT platform in the same way all 4 other factions have.
2- Giving them another 2x PTRS will indeed increase their AT capabilities and make them not be dead weight.


I just think IMO, that Penals would had been much better as purely AI units with AI upgrade which can tech AT nades for making their satchel sticky and any early AT they required would be supplemented by the 45mm.


Also PTRS are not good enough against FHT, Flak HT nor Ostwind.

Ptrs is fine for the role it's supposed to fill. Soviet AT is defensive in nature and the ptrs reflects that in its plinking nature combined with ALL PTRS squads also having a snare of some sort. The ptrs is like a Molotov not a bundled nade. It denies the enemy the luxary of freedom of movement.

Whats more, a powerful man AT weapon shouldn't be in the hands of 6 man squads.

Most I could see is a refinement of vet that allows for faster shots on PTRS squads but ultimately the ptrs is not supposed to be more than an annoying supplement AT late game and plinking off 20 damage shots (minimum) when in range is acceptable for that job

Ptrs is fine for the role it's supposed to fill. Soviet AT is defensive in nature and the ptrs reflects that in its plinking nature combined with ALL PTRS squads also having a snare of some sort. The ptrs is like a Molotov not a bundled nade. It denies the enemy the luxary of freedom of movement.

Whats more, a powerful man AT weapon shouldn't be in the hands of 6 man squads.

Most I could see is a refinement of vet that allows for faster shots on PTRS squads but ultimately the ptrs is not supposed to be more than an annoying supplement AT late game and plinking off 20 damage shots (minimum) when in range is acceptable for that job

Funny you mention molotov, which was specifically adjusted through con vet to be useful later in the game.

Because the main problem with PTRS as an AT weapon is reliability and micro. It's a defensive weapon that only punishes people who stay for a long time and are indecisive in regards of what they want to do. All other AT Infantry can just shoot a rocket and move while reloading. If for whatever reason the targets leaves range by the time the weapon finishes aiming you have to repeat the process.

What makes Penals threatening to an Ele/JT is their AT satchel not their PTRS.


I think there are 2 complete different issues.

1- PTRS doesn't make Soviets have a mobile AT platform in the same way all 4 other factions have.
2- Giving them another 2x PTRS will indeed increase their AT capabilities and make them not be dead weight.


I just think IMO, that Penals would had been much better as purely AI units with AI upgrade which can tech AT nades for making their satchel sticky and any early AT they required would be supplemented by the 45mm.


Also PTRS are not good enough against FHT, Flak HT nor Ostwind.

I don't think ptrs are that different from other infantry based AT. The core of the problem is that in any kind of T1 build your mainline inf serves as AT. And no one seems to be able to make this work in practice. Which is why Penals need to return to a pure AI role with AT satchels as snares. Giving a third PTRS won't do jackshit imo. The challenge is to figure out how to give the soviet T1 a viable soft AT option. The M42 and AT Satchels after ATNade tech would solve the balance issue but imo it's a very lazy solution further promoting the maximum meta double ATGun play. It would effectively mean that every single game soviets are forced into double at gun. (either double ZIS or double m42)

Funny you mention molotov, which was specifically adjusted through con vet to be useful later in the game.

which was in part the inspiration. hell, we could even try something like ramping fire could we not? like the kuble when it suppressed after sitting still for a bit perhaps it could be tuned so the PTRS' fires more rapidly the long its been on the same target?

side note, 3 ptrs could be reworked to work. 3 guns firing vs 2 means more steady output. even if the overall DPS was the same, the chip damage would be more consistent which would be good

one might also attempt something like crew wound criticals when a tank is below a certain health threshold- this would be a temporary debuff that would be nearly unattainable without combined arms but would allow the ptrs to be a threat to an enemy that lets them sit and plink away
the problem with attrition style units/ weapons in this game is that there is littl threat outside just sitting there, cons had the same problem when they couldnt hit the broad side of a barn. they dont have to be high threat but they need to be ENOUGH of a threat that target priority comes into play.

which was in part the inspiration. hell, we could even try something like ramping fire could we not? like the kuble when it suppressed after sitting still for a bit perhaps it could be tuned so the PTRS' fires more rapidly the long its been on the same target?

side note, 3 ptrs could be reworked to work. 3 guns firing vs 2 means more steady output. even if the overall DPS was the same, the chip damage would be more consistent which would be good

one might also attempt something like crew wound criticals when a tank is below a certain health threshold- this would be a temporary debuff that would be nearly unattainable without combined arms but would allow the ptrs to be a threat to an enemy that lets them sit and plink away
the problem with attrition style units/ weapons in this game is that there is littl threat outside just sitting there, cons had the same problem when they couldnt hit the broad side of a barn. they dont have to be high threat but they need to be ENOUGH of a threat that target priority comes into play.

Either that or allow the penals to upgrade to 3x PTSR and buff dmg by a tiny tiny bit. PTSR as a weapon wouldn't be as effective as a shreck and if you blob penals... one good AOE strike induces a lot of bleed. Or give them an option to upgrade to either 3x PTSR or 2x some other AI weapon so that they can specialize in either AT or AI. I don't know whether that would make them OP but it certainly wouldn't be from the 3x PTSR.

For Penal Battalions, maybe a combination of bonus penetration at Vet 2/3 and an additional PTRS Package at T4 will help them against Mediums. That would encourage you to spare some Penals rather than massing PTRS on all available units.

Either that or allow the penals to upgrade to 3x PTSR and buff dmg by a tiny tiny bit. PTSR as a weapon wouldn't be as effective as a shreck and if you blob penals... one good AOE strike induces a lot of bleed. Or give them an option to upgrade to either 3x PTSR or 2x some other AI weapon so that they can specialize in either AT or AI. I don't know whether that would make them OP but it certainly wouldn't be from the 3x PTSR.

Give them 2x captured PGs Panzerbushe. It shoots one bullet and can have better penetration and maybe even better damage.

Hello! I played the Winter Patch mod.
I was surprised:
- SU-76 "Good change". Especially disguise for 1 veterancy.
- T-34 (All options: 76 and 85) did not see anything to change. How many times I ram any enemy technique, all the same breaks down all the T-34 than the enemy. "Bad change / redo it again." I would give the T-34 some kind of improvement! and then why the United States, the British, OKW and the Wehrmacht are getting better technology than the USSR ???
- M3 scout "Good change option". Especially the general receipt of veteran status, It just plays a bad role, when: Armor from 5.4 / 4.2 to 3.8 / 3.5, then the cost of the unit must be changed. from 190/15 to 180/10.
- ZiS-3 (I can't see the change finally) better solve the problems with an artillery shot from the ZiS-3, otherwise this unit doesn't move YOU!
- Special Rifle Command-what is it or is it T1???
- Katyusha "I don't see a solution". it is better to remove 1 veteran ability "Creeping Barrage" to "Incendiary missiles or smoke missiles".


Now what do I want to see the Winter patch updates from the USSR?
1) Change the Assault kit for Recruits.
- - The "Lie down!" ability is ineffective with 3x PPSH-41 better than 3x SVT-40 or 2x DP-28
- Or remove the "Lie down!" and replace the Molotov cocktail with a grenade (if we are talking about an Assault kit.)
2) Add improvements to Medium and Heavy tanks
- T-34 (all variants 76 and 85) give an improvement of "OT-34" with a cost of 75-100 Ammo. Of exchange rate changes on exchange rate of the heavy flamethrower and rename to ot-34 (Flamethrower tank 34)
- T-34 (all variants 76 and 85) give an improvement to "Shielded shields" with a cost of 100/25. Increases armor by +10% and reduces: either the chance of damage to modules from Panzerfaust, Or -15% of the damage received.
3) ISU-152
"Excuse me, people, but this is beyond that." Why does the ISU-152 deal 240 damage when it has a 152mm caliber? Do elephant 88mm and Jagdtigra 128mm deal 320 damage than ISU-152????
- Change the damage for ISU-152 from 240 to 320
- If you don't like it then change the cost and CP. (due to damage and shooting distance)
4) Is-2
"also needs changes. Because of the caliber of the Tiger 88mm and the is-2 122mm and the damage and distance are bad."
- Change damage from 160 to 200 (2-3 vet increases to 240 damage)
- Is-2 give an improvement to "Shielded shields" with a cost of 100/25. Increases armor by +10% and reduces: either the chance of damage to modules from Panzerfaust, Or -15% of the damage received.

This patch brings very good changes to the sovjet faction, the healing buff and mg buff is a well crafted addition, the ram + IL combo nerf is a well thought change. No more i save munition and build a crap t 34 win goodbye heavy button”.

Looking forward to the final release

the ram + IL combo nerf is a well thought change. No more i save munition and build a crap t 34 win goodbye heavy button”.

Looking forward to the final release

yes... now you dont have to worry about the T-34 at all since nobody`s gonna play the soviets anyways...

but yeah sure lets nerf an underpowered and struggling faction...

yes... now you dont have to worry about the T-34 at all since nobody`s gonna play the soviets anyways...

but yeah sure lets nerf an underpowered and struggling faction...

I dont agree that sov is a struggling faction, they got both buffs and nerfs. I dont think you have read the patchnotes. Read them again.
Both Mg buff, penal buff, healing buff

I dont agree that sov is a struggling faction, they got both buffs and nerfs. I dont think you have read the patchnotes. Read them again.
Both Mg buff, penal buff, healing buff

All those buffs except healing are in the early game. Their mid and late game got nerfed. T70 nerfed t34 nerfed su85 nerfed zis nerfed quad nerfed though m5 is buffed.

Soviet was good late game but nothing to strong or op about it. T70 nerf didnt come with meaningfull buffs elsewhere in the mid game just more nerfs.

Give them 2x captured PGs Panzerbushe. It shoots one bullet and can have better penetration and maybe even better damage.

Panzerbüchse 39 was worse than PTRS, that would be odd... ^^

I dont agree that sov is a struggling faction, they got both buffs and nerfs. I dont think you have read the patchnotes.

Have you seen the automatch and tourney data? The soviets struggle hard in the current meta... plus the faction is already crutching hard on the T70... and that just got nerfed without fixing the underlying issue with sov...

Read them again.
Both Mg buff, penal buff, healing buff

The maxim is still worse than any normal mg...
penals still dont scale...
conscripts still have stupid side techs...
Soviet teching is still stupidly expensive...
Conscripts still have their upgrade at t4

Meanwhile the T70 and the T34 just got nerfbatted hard without any compensation

So what if something like this was done to change T1 builds?

Regimental Field Headquarters
- Molotov and AT Grenade upgrades combined to new 'Infantry Support Weapons'
- Infantry Support weapons also unlocks conscript PTRS package and AT satchels for Penals
- Cost 200 manpower and 20 fuel
The main purpose of this change is to, in general, make it easier to get access to the various throwables. This also helps to tie into an idea of making various upgrades benefit both conscripts and penals.

Conscripts
- Added 'PTRS package' that gives conscripts 2 PTRS rifles.
- Costs 50 munitions
Conscripts are much better units to give PTRS rifles due to their much cheaper cost and various abilities. T1 builds will want to get a conscript squad for the large utility they offer.

Special Rifle Command
- Build time from 20 to 12
Same as current change on test version. Makes early timings slightly faster in the early game.

M3 Scout
- Health from 200 to 240
- Armor from 5.4/4.2 to 3.8/3.5
- Now gains shared veterancy
- Can now capture territory at veterancy 2
Same as current changes on test version. Makes it the same vs small arms fire but not instantly die from AT. Also easier to vet and more worthwhile to keep around later on.

Penal Battalion
- Reinforce time from 5.4 to 4.5
- Removed PTRS Package
- AT Satchel now unlocked through Infantry Support Weapons.
- AT Satchel reworked to have less damage but more range. Should behave more like a standard snare.
- Mobilize Reserves now grants Penals: -2 reinforcement cost, +20% Veterancy gain, -5% Received Accuracy
These changes aim to fix 2 of the main issues Penals have which is their lack of viable snare and lacking late game. Removing the PTRS package keeps Penals consistently good at Anti Infantry and can't be diluted with an upgrade.
The mobilize reserves upgrade should give Penals a minor but noticeable boost in the late game. Reducing the bleed of Penals and making them vet faster should help this. 7 man conscripts should remain the much better upgrade late game.

There are likely other ideas out there and I even have some for possible changes to T3 and T4 units but mainly wanted to keep this post focused on the Tier 1 changes since it already is quite a big set of changes. Hopefully this would make Penals and T1 in general more of an actual option while not massively buffing units as that could cause a lot of issues in the OKW matchup.

Penal Battalion
- Reinforce time from 5.4 to 4.5
- Removed PTRS Package
- AT Satchel now unlocked through Infantry Support Weapons.
- AT Satchel reworked to have less damage but more range. Should behave more like a standard snare.
- Mobilize Reserves now grants Penals: -2 reinforcement cost, +20% Veterancy gain, -5% Received Accuracy

i like the idea behind these changes but i think mobilize reserves should be renamed to "promotion to strelky" and grant -5% RA + 30% increased rate of fire

i like the idea behind these changes but i think mobilize reserves should be renamed to "promotion to strelky" and grant -5% RA + 30% increased rate of fire

That would make penals nuclear. They are already nasty... With a 30% faster rof it would be unholy.