oh my lord, how can someone think spec ops flares is OP and not the UKF one, srsly what the hell, they both need to be removed.
JibberJabberJobber and elchino7, have a really good solution though!
Can we please address OKW arty flares in new patch
26 Nov 2020, 19:51 PM
#21
Posts: 808
26 Nov 2020, 20:16 PM
#22
Posts: 5279
Really? No one?
Alright, then I'll do it:
*clears throat*
Brits have almost exactly the same ability REEEEEE!
Having said that, I agree. All these abilities should go. No offmaps, all can be put on main line infantry similar to Panzerfusiliers.
If the okw one was actually exactly like the Brit one it wouldn't be as problematic.
The okw one is cheaper meaning you see it more, and since it's only 1 flare instead of one on every point the enemy is less Likley to notice it which is extra strong because it's also not restricted to Frontline- its exactly where you want it.
They both need changed but it's silly to say that having uncountable recon EXACTLY when and where you want it is the same as Frontline recon.
#stalinwept
26 Nov 2020, 20:25 PM
#23
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
oh my lord, how can someone think spec ops flares is OP and not the UKF one, srsly what the hell, they both need to be removed.
JibberJabberJobber and elchino7, have a really good solution though!
That's because one is good regardless of mode while the other might be more situational though they are both bad in the way they can't be played around.
OKW flares is good because it's on demand vision which enables other offmap to work. UKF flares might not provide vision for say planes or artillery.
I'm sure no one but the absolute fanboys would cry if both are changed.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
26 Nov 2020, 22:06 PM
#24
Posts: 789
Here is my original suggestion:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/97674/flare-rework-proposal
And Sander93 has suggested adding a version of this rework to the game:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/106030/sander-s-personal-balance-changes
So as you can see, things are being done
https://www.coh2.org/topic/97674/flare-rework-proposal
Right now, flares provide uncounterable vision, which is very powerful.
I propose that instead of the flares sighting units themselves, they grant a sight range bonus to all units in the flare’s radius.
This way, flares will no longer be able to grant uncounterable vision on back lines, while still providing bonus sight.
And Sander93 has suggested adding a version of this rework to the game:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/106030/sander-s-personal-balance-changes
Artillery Flares (Special Operations)
Due to the uncounterable nature of the artillery flares, the ability is being overhauled completely. Instead, it will now give a vision bonus to units which should be very useful when fighting in a particular area.
No longer gives vision on its own
Flares are now a visual indicator only (that the ability is being used)
Now gives every (player owned) unit within proximity of the ability +50% sight range for the duration of the ability
Ability is now activated by designating a particular resource sector. Ability is extended to all adjacent territory sectors
So as you can see, things are being done
Most of my ideas are probably bad, - but I try and share lots of them
and maybe some of them will be good an improve the game
One can hope
and maybe some of them will be good an improve the game
One can hope
26 Nov 2020, 23:14 PM
#25
Posts: 449
Here is my original suggestion:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/97674/flare-rework-proposal
And Sander93 has suggested adding a version of this rework to the game:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/106030/sander-s-personal-balance-changes
So as you can see, things are being done
What will happen to UKF flares?
26 Nov 2020, 23:57 PM
#26
Posts: 1594
i kinda hate how the OKW recon flare is the only recon ability without a catch to it... other recon abilities can be shot down or need another unit (a mortar or a sniper) in close proximity... the OKW flare is basically recon without any drawback to it...
Brit flares are similarly rather braindead. Sure they're limited to "frontline sectors", but this is generally where you'd want to see, anyway. (Except in the case of Artillery units, perhaps)
Flares in general are rather too strong, I'd prefer if none of them provided sight alone, once they're fired they're uncounterable. Someone made a suggestion that they should instead just improve the sight radius of nearby units, which I like the sound of. Alternately: Replace them with Recon Planes.
27 Nov 2020, 16:23 PM
#27
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
So what people think about the stock reckon planes of USF and USF that can be called from enemy base and provide vision before being shot down?
27 Nov 2020, 16:45 PM
#28
Posts: 249
So what people think about the stock reckon planes of USF and USF that can be called from enemy base and provide vision before being shot down?
That is specifically the key difference here. AA can bring down planes and thus shorten the time that the planes provide recon(obviously requiring an resource investment but key sentence is ''being able to be countered'').
Flares have no way to be countered other than holding all munition points on the map which is ridiculous in comparison to planes or sight extenders like the SU-85 has. I don't remember how long arty flares last but it is usually enough for artillery to fire with clear vision.
These flare abilities need to be restricted in use or outright replaced with abilities that can be countered, like recon planes or sight extenders. The mods have made decent suggestions, making spec ops doctrine open to changes aswell which is welcome.
27 Nov 2020, 16:50 PM
#29
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
That is specifically the key difference here. AA can bring down planes and thus shorten the time that the planes provide recon(obviously requiring an resource investment but key sentence is ''being able to be countered'').
Flares have no way to be countered other than holding all munition points on the map which is ridiculous in comparison to planes or sight extenders like the SU-85 has. I don't remember how long arty flares last but it is usually enough for artillery to fire with clear vision.
These flare abilities need to be restricted in use or outright replaced with abilities that can be countered, like recon planes or sight extenders. The mods have made decent suggestions, making spec ops doctrine open to changes aswell which is welcome.
There is another key difference here. These reckon planes are stock and do not take up a commander slot.
As for being countered usually they provide enough vision to call in an off map even outside enemy base thus they also have little counter in that role.
27 Nov 2020, 17:19 PM
#30
Posts: 5279
There is another key difference here. These reckon planes are stock and do not take up a commander slot.
As for being countered usually they provide enough vision to call in an off map even outside enemy base thus they also have little counter in that role.
not sure what you are arguing here exactly. all factions have shit others dont have stock. one could argue that ost has to use a commander slot to get heavy armour or a td with more than 50 range, or brits and usf need a commander slot for rocket arty. having something another faction doesnt have stock access to is miles away from an ability that quite literally has no counter nor required effort. flares are fine when tied to a unit as they require something to get into range. flares that you can click anywhere is not ok.
whats more, all plane recon alerts the enemy they are being reconed which itself allows counterplay in moving (if possible) where flares do not. this again is offset on units that need to get in range but okw flares have none of the mitigating factors that makes flares "ok" its all boons and no drawbacks or counterplay which in lies the rub.
#stalinwept
27 Nov 2020, 17:26 PM
#31
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
not sure what you are arguing here exactly. all factions have shit others dont have stock. one could argue that ost has to use a commander slot to get heavy armour or a td with more than 50 range, or brits and usf need a commander slot for rocket arty. having something another faction doesnt have stock access to is miles away from an ability that quite literally has no counter nor required effort. flares are fine when tied to a unit as they require something to get into range. flares that you can click anywhere is not ok.
whats more, all plane recon alerts the enemy they are being reconed which itself allows counterplay in moving (if possible) where flares do not. this again is offset on units that need to get in range but okw flares have none of the mitigating factors that makes flares "ok" its all boons and no drawbacks or counterplay which in lies the rub.
Those reckon planes combined with off maps allow easy counter to static howitzer and OKW truck and in my opinion should not be available stock
27 Nov 2020, 17:54 PM
#32
Posts: 240
USF stock recon is another subject, but I also believe no faction should have stock recon like that in my opinion. (Atleast in team games it provides a big advantage)
The Ruleset is only a guideline, and are not actually the Rules. This is .org
27 Nov 2020, 18:02 PM
#33
Posts: 1594
USF and UKF stock planes are an entirely different topic than OKW flares, honestly.
Honestly, even as an Axis "main" I agree that Spec Ops flares are far too good, and should be replaced, or given to some unit in the OKW arsenal as a fireable, rather than being an offmap. (In team modes. In 1v1 they don't pose as much of an issue, despite being uncounterable)
Honestly, even as an Axis "main" I agree that Spec Ops flares are far too good, and should be replaced, or given to some unit in the OKW arsenal as a fireable, rather than being an offmap. (In team modes. In 1v1 they don't pose as much of an issue, despite being uncounterable)
27 Nov 2020, 18:35 PM
#34
Posts: 930
Stick the ability to all tanks, but with a global cooldown and slighlty lower 50 muni cost. Done.
was about to post this.
27 Nov 2020, 18:43 PM
#35
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
Single pass plane are stupid in a different way and planes providing vision when they crash in a specific NE direction doubly so, but at least they don't provide constant vision over an area, which is required for others abilities to work.
The problem is not USF having stock single pass recon. They lack in other tools.
The problem is not the flare per se, it's how it's implemented.
The problem is not USF having stock single pass recon. They lack in other tools.
The problem is not the flare per se, it's how it's implemented.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
27 Nov 2020, 18:48 PM
#36
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
For the porpoise of providing vision for off map in the rear both flares and single pass planes are stupid.
The difference here is that UKF and USF can combine any of these off maps with their stock recon while Special op flares do not come with any off map.
And I will say again that CD on flares is ridiculously low and should be reduced.
The difference here is that UKF and USF can combine any of these off maps with their stock recon while Special op flares do not come with any off map.
And I will say again that CD on flares is ridiculously low and should be reduced.
27 Nov 2020, 20:20 PM
#37
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
There is another key difference here. These reckon planes are stock and do not take up a commander slot.
Nor do they work or last like actual doctrinal recon planes or OPW flares.
Also, what about UHU half of the map sight?
Should we allow allied units to throw a rock at projector, giving it permanent "light broken" critical until repaired to counter it?
What about soviet sniper and mortar flares? Do you want infantry to shoot them down too?
Different factions have different tools.
Deal with it already.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
27 Nov 2020, 20:22 PM
#38
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Nor do they work or last like actual doctrinal recon planes or OPW flares.
How the work is not important the important thing is they allow to combine them with off map and bomb the enemy out side his base the same way flare allow the same.
27 Nov 2020, 20:23 PM
#39
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
How the work is not important the important thing is they allow to combine them with off map and bomb the enemy out side his base the same way flare allow the same.
Combined arms OP, pls nerf lelik.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
27 Nov 2020, 20:24 PM
#40
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Combined arms OP, pls nerf lelik.
Think you need to check the definition of "combined arms" because two clicks does not fall under the category.
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