Will they address Panzergrens in the new patch?
24 Dec 2020, 10:44 AM
#81
Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1
Im not sure you can just put pgrens back in t2 and consider it fixed, they were terrible back when they were in the t2. I think either keep them in hq and nerf their initial strength/shock factor or put them in t2 and give them some buffs to help with their later timings.
bg /l
24 Dec 2020, 10:50 AM
#82
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Im not sure you can just put pgrens back in t2 and consider it fixed, they were terrible back when they were in the t2. I think either keep them in hq and nerf their initial strength/shock factor or put them in t2 and give them some buffs to help with their later timings.
Or move back in T2 but instead of buffing them, fine tune allied infatry so in addition both grenadier and VG do not addition buff either.
24 Dec 2020, 10:51 AM
#83
Posts: 1515
Pgrens are fine. I mean, in 3v3 in one lane I usually go vs fast pgrens and MG42 with pios and with good positioning I win. Not to mention the fact that the MG42 is useless if behind heavy cover and echelons can easily flank through FOW. Never had any problem dealing with fast Pgrens. They are strong, but not OP. Bundled nade is the biggest problem, the long range and low fuse can put a world of pain if you are not paying attention but that's getting addressed in the patch. All in all, pgrens are fine ATM
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
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25 Dec 2020, 10:47 AM
#84
Posts: 1979
the bundle didnt get a nerf except the vet 3 throwing range though...
also 3 min pgrens are far more of a nuisance in 2v2/1v1 than 3v3/4v4... the time between the first LV and the first pgren grows larger the smaller the game mode... allowing them to exercise dominance for a larger period of time in absence of a hard counter (like minespam or doctrinal infantry)
also 3 min pgrens are far more of a nuisance in 2v2/1v1 than 3v3/4v4... the time between the first LV and the first pgren grows larger the smaller the game mode... allowing them to exercise dominance for a larger period of time in absence of a hard counter (like minespam or doctrinal infantry)
26 Dec 2020, 00:12 AM
#85
Posts: 1379
the bundle didnt get a nerf except the vet 3 throwing range though...
also 3 min pgrens are far more of a nuisance in 2v2/1v1 than 3v3/4v4... the time between the first LV and the first pgren grows larger the smaller the game mode... allowing them to exercise dominance for a larger period of time in absence of a hard counter (like minespam or doctrinal infantry)
I have to agree that 3 minute pgrens are a real issue in 1v1s and 2v2s as compared to 3v3s and 4v4s.
Off topic though: why do you constantly use ellipses instead of periods? Every post I've seen you make, a single period would suffice but it is instead is followed by two more. It's maddening. Reading one of your posts is like listening to grandpa reminisce about his younger years, taking a minute to pause between each sentence.
"And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family?..The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and... the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough...We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”― Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn , The Gulag Archipelago 1918–1956
26 Dec 2020, 03:12 AM
#86
Posts: 479
Maybe increase the BP1 MP cost to 150 or 200 to delay P-Grens? Otherwise Tier 2 would probably be fine since P-Grens have recieved multiple buffs since those days and Tier 2 is only 100 mp now instead of the 200 mp when P-Grens used to struggle in Tier 2.
26 Dec 2020, 04:04 AM
#87
Posts: 783
Otherwise Tier 2 would probably be fine since P-Grens have recieved multiple buffs since those days and Tier 2 is only 100 mp now instead of the 200 mp when P-Grens used to struggle in Tier 2.
Pgrens have recieved no combat stat buffs for years. They've had their vet shifted around and their reinforcement cost reduced, but nothing that would make them stronger in a shootout upon first purchase.
26 Dec 2020, 04:07 AM
#88
Posts: 479
Pgrens have recieved no combat stat buffs for years. They've had their vet shifted around and their reinforcement cost reduced, but nothing that would make them stronger in a shootout upon first purchase.
They received the Combined Arms passive ability which buffs them when they are around vehicles and their popcap was reduced to 8 from 9 which can allow you to go for 2-3 squads of them. They get their vet earlier and have really good later vet bonuses which makes them scale pretty well into the late game. They just come too early right now and even though their timing is better since Ostruppen require Tier 1, the Assault Grenadier Tier 1 skip is still a strong strategy which can get you extremely fast P-Grens.
26 Dec 2020, 06:03 AM
#89
Posts: 1794
Any thread about Pgrens will invariably include discussion about LMG Grens.
It's powercreep yes. Ideally you'd tone down all Allied mainline infantry's endgame performance slightly and then also tone down most of Axis doctrinal infantry (everything except Volks and Grens pretty much). I doubt it's gonna happen, because buffing Volks and Grens to be on par with other infantry in the endgame is much easier. You'Il just have to get used to the faster pace instead of being stuck in pre-WFA mentality forever.
Yap that is the issue to me.
the pace is considerably faster than i liked now.
Problem is Ost are slower paced army design, the smaller sqaud sizes, the static weapon teams, the 'higher' armor values, lack of recon stock, lack of 60TD, the higher costs tier.
thats why the clutch on early presence through ostt and mid-game cqc durability of 5 men vsl against elite/vet allies.
And pray you can get 1-2 p4 to close the game or open enough vp lead to hold on against end games allies OP.
26 Dec 2020, 06:06 AM
#90
Posts: 1794
They received the Combined Arms passive ability which buffs them when they are around vehicles and their popcap was reduced to 8 from 9 which can allow you to go for 2-3 squads of them. They get their vet earlier and have really good later vet bonuses which makes them scale pretty well into the late game. They just come too early right now and even though their timing is better since Ostruppen require Tier 1, the Assault Grenadier Tier 1 skip is still a strong strategy which can get you extremely fast P-Grens.
combined arms only give sprint at vet1 no?
pgren are also expensive and 4 men dps goes down really fast if you are closing in intead of ambushing.
26 Dec 2020, 07:02 AM
#91
Posts: 783
They received the Combined Arms passive ability which buffs them when they are around vehicles and their popcap was reduced to 8 from 9 which can allow you to go for 2-3 squads of them. They get their vet earlier and have really good later vet bonuses which makes them scale pretty well into the late game. They just come too early right now and even though their timing is better since Ostruppen require Tier 1, the Assault Grenadier Tier 1 skip is still a strong strategy which can get you extremely fast P-Grens.
Pgrens have recieved no COMBAT STAT BUFFS for years.
The combined arms is great but realistically you won't have your light vehicle next to them most of the time. You certainly won't have a light vehicle by the time your first pgren hits the field, and combined arms requires vet 1 anyway. Combined arms is largely a moot point if thats being used as an argument against their current timing.
The pop reduction is helpful... 15 mins into the game when you are hitting the pop cap. It is not relevant at the timing they hit the field.
Vet bonuses spread across multiple vet levels is also useful but not relevant to the specific time that they hit the field.
I am not arguing for pgrens to stay as is. But these specific examples do not support moving pgrens to T2.
26 Dec 2020, 07:05 AM
#92
Posts: 356
Moving Pgrens back requires buffing performance, or else you're basically removing them from the game. The problem with the original t2 timing was that you were better off building 4 grens than saving for pgrens that would have a whole 30 second window of effectiveness before vehicle play makes them a bleed liability.
As I've stated in the past OST's major problem is that grens do nothing well, and are in all aspects an inferior infantry squad.
Proper gren balancing would be to either buff damage at the cost of survivability, or buff survivability at the cost of damage.
Ostruppen already fill the role of damage sponge, so the sensible thing would be to turn grens into more of a glass cannon role for the early game.
As I've stated in the past OST's major problem is that grens do nothing well, and are in all aspects an inferior infantry squad.
Proper gren balancing would be to either buff damage at the cost of survivability, or buff survivability at the cost of damage.
Ostruppen already fill the role of damage sponge, so the sensible thing would be to turn grens into more of a glass cannon role for the early game.
26 Dec 2020, 07:15 AM
#93
Posts: 290
Most broken thing atm is 7 man conscript squads, whoever thought giving russians 7 man squads would be good idea...
26 Dec 2020, 07:17 AM
#94
Posts: 290
Moving Pgrens back requires buffing performance, or else you're basically removing them from the game. The problem with the original t2 timing was that you were better off building 4 grens than saving for pgrens that would have a whole 30 second window of effectiveness before vehicle play makes them a bleed liability.
As I've stated in the past OST's major problem is that grens do nothing well, and are in all aspects an inferior infantry squad.
Proper gren balancing would be to either buff damage at the cost of survivability, or buff survivability at the cost of damage.
Ostruppen already fill the role of damage sponge, so the sensible thing would be to turn grens into more of a glass cannon role for the early game.
Another is grens bleed manpower like crazy too as 4 man squads lose models much quicker than 5-7 man squads.
26 Dec 2020, 07:49 AM
#95
Posts: 356
Another is grens bleed manpower like crazy too as 4 man squads lose models much quicker than 5-7 man squads.
I wouldn't say they bleed primarily, but the problem with the hot nor cold balancing forces you to choose between manpower bleed, or map control. Yes a gren squad can beat a conscript squad if you play well, but the low damage at long range means you can't contest a capping squad without closing in.
Ideal gren positioning will slowly lose you the whole map.
26 Dec 2020, 11:36 AM
#96
Posts: 875 | Subs: 6
I think PGrens would be much better balanced back in Tier 2 now. Pretty sure when they were in Tier 2 they still had Medpacks as their vet 1 ability and didn't get that passive boost around vehicles. They have been buffed since then so it makes sense they don't arrive in the first few minutes of the game. My main problem with Pgrens is the insane wipe power of the bundle Grenades, especially when they are running around with Shreks.
26 Dec 2020, 11:57 AM
#97
Posts: 1289
Most broken thing atm is 7 man conscript squads, whoever thought giving russians 7 man squads would be good idea...
You cant beat or bully cons around anymore and that broken? Soviets cant have any usefull inf without docs?
7th man allows cons to be more then a snaring squad. It allows merge to be usefull beyond ce flamers in the early game. You can merge the bigger squad without loosing the entire squad. This imo is the most powerfull bit about 7th man actually keeping squads en team weapons on the field, but its far from op.
26 Dec 2020, 14:35 PM
#98
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Most broken thing atm is 7 man conscript squads, whoever thought giving russians 7 man squads would be good idea...
Stop fighting attrition fighting squad in prolonged small arms firefights using cheaper squads?
Where is your indirect and tanks?
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
26 Dec 2020, 17:55 PM
#99
Posts: 783
I think PGrens would be much better balanced back in Tier 2 now. Pretty sure when they were in Tier 2 they still had Medpacks as their vet 1 ability and didn't get that passive boost around vehicles. They have been buffed since then so it makes sense they don't arrive in the first few minutes of the game. My main problem with Pgrens is the insane wipe power of the bundle Grenades, especially when they are running around with Shreks.
None of the buffs they received is relevant to their timing shock value. Combined arms requires a vehicle and vet 1 to work and if you rush pgrens out you won't have either.
26 Dec 2020, 18:23 PM
#100
Posts: 219
over-reliance on grens is fast route to defeat.
if you lose your pio-squad early, getting T2 would be postponed, especially if fighting gets fierce, and needing to prioritize mg, mortars or grens.
how about they come out as they currently do, but arrive with 50/50 K98 and STG44? and when T2 is built, STG44 upgrade is free for whole squad?
if you lose your pio-squad early, getting T2 would be postponed, especially if fighting gets fierce, and needing to prioritize mg, mortars or grens.
how about they come out as they currently do, but arrive with 50/50 K98 and STG44? and when T2 is built, STG44 upgrade is free for whole squad?
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