Shock grenade

If you want to nerf the grenade, then rework them to be design around something else than just the grenade and getting close.

Why it cant be just a normal grenade for 20 muni with lower cooldown? With vet it would cost 15 muni. It wont be wiping that bad, but at least would be spammable and affordable.

It wont change their "elite" and "bruteforce" nature, but would be much plesent to play against.

Not my words but Sander.

Basically because the Sturm Officer is basically an Ober squad.
The NKVD panflets is a not a direct retreat, there's RNG as to which effect occurs and takes time.

Nah, I played against a same guy who plays this same strat all the time. He goes for penal spam + NKVD officer.

Not a single time this ability wasnt succesefull for him. It always payed off. Even moving away or trying to dodge wasnt effective against it.

Well but anyway even considering this, its a 75% chance of any effect, which will realistically force you to retreat if you are attacking or defending and he has troops nearby and 25% chance of nothing.

Which i think is good, because the grenade is less oriented towards wiping full HP squads.

Then all elite grenades should be similar...

And the point of are:
1) cheaper than other grenades
2) sorter fuse than powerful grenades, more damage than grenades with the same fuse

What OP is suggesting is that is should wither be inline with mk2 cooked grenade or inline with bundle grenades but not combine the best of two worlds as it currently does while being cheaper.

In sort the patch changes that aimed to make shock's:"grenade to be on par with other anti-infantry specialists." has missed it target and made is superior to other grenades.

The argument that shock are designed to have a superior grenade is simply false.

Here you go, there is the graph:



So overall, shock nade is the same as a standard (Tommy) nade up to 2 meters, then becomes better. Bundle nade is pretty much just a straight upgrade from a normal grenade in terms of AoE profile.

I don't know about the exact fuse times (see OPs post for that), prices are 30 (Shock nade and normal) or 35 (bundle), respectively. I don't know what Vipper is talking about by saying it were cheaper than other grenades, because that is wrong.

In total though: There is no reason why the Shock nade should be better than a normal one apart from specific unit design. I have not made up my mind if this is necessary or not, but overall it's fair to say that the normal grenades usually come on units that have decent mid to long range DPS and therefore have a chance for a squad wipe after the grenade hit. The Shock nade has 20 range, however if you want to combine a grenade with small arms fire for a wipe you need to be within range 10-15 at least, otherwise the Axis squad will be long gone before you can do some damage.

So I can see a decent reason why the Shock grenade could be a bit stronger than a normal one despite the same price. If the current extend is fine is debatable. But if it needs to be changed I would say that the change should be minor.

I disagree with OP though that the Shock nade can be described as "roughly equally lethal" as the bundle nade. The Shock grenade is clearly closer to the normal standard nade than the bundle nade/light gammon bomb)

The argument that shock are designed to have a superior grenade is simply false.

On the contrary. The mere existence of this thread and the decisions to apply those specific changes prove it.

The argument is whether or not is good, as Hannibal following post mentions.

Why it cant be just a normal grenade for 20 muni with lower cooldown? With vet it would cost 15 muni. It wont be wiping that bad, but at least would be spammable and affordable.

It wont change their "elite" and "bruteforce" nature, but would be much plesent to play against.

Why does bundle/gammon bomb exist? Why does white phosporous/Blendkörper/USF smoke grenades exist?

In diversity, there's beauty.

Well but anyway even considering this, its a 75% chance of any effect, which will realistically force you to retreat if you are attacking or defending and he has troops nearby and 25% chance of nothing.

I'm not telling you whether is balanced or not. I'm simply answering you WHY it is the way it is.

On the contrary. The mere existence of this thread and the decisions to apply those specific changes prove it.

The argument is whether or not is good, as Hannibal following post mentions.

No.

Shock troops where originally designed to have a weaker grenade with sorter fuse.

The MOD team according to the patch notes decided to:
"We are also improving the performance of the Shock Troops’ grenade to be on par with other anti-infantry specialists."

In order to do that they should either increase the fuse time and damage and AOE profile to be "on par" with bundle grenades or keep the sort fuse and make the profile similar to cooked grenades.

Keeping the sort fuse and they increasing the damage made the grenade superior to "other anti-infantry specialists"

Why does bundle/gammon bomb exist? Why does white phosporous/Blendkörper/USF smoke grenades exist?
In diversity, there's beauty.

Because its a bad designed diversity doesnt exist?

Diversity shouldn't be achived by simply giving someone something that is strate of the bat will be better, because "it meant to be so".

Diversity always can be achived by ajusting availability and price.

I dont think that diversity achived by wiping potential in game based on preserving units and veterancy is good desing, dont you?

I'm not telling you whether is balanced or not. I'm simply answering you WHY it is the way it is.

Yes, 25% of bad result meaning 25% price reduction, ignoring everything else. Got it.

No.

Shock troops where originally designed to have a weaker grenade with sorter fuse.

The MOD team according to the patch notes decided to:
"We are also improving the performance of the Shock Troops’ grenade to be on par with other anti-infantry specialists."

In order to do that they should either increase the fuse time and damage and AOE profile to be "on par" with bundle grenades or keep the sort fuse and make the profile similar to cooked grenades.

Keeping the sort fuse and they increasing the damage made the grenade superior to "other anti-infantry specialists"

Unless of course it say, has a smaller AOE. I'm which case it can be "on par" without being a wipe machine.

Again, combined with their short range and lack of utikity/combat flexibility the slightly more effecient grenade is acceptable. If you are not paying attention while shocks close to begin with you will be punished pretty hard, this just gives them burst potential. They can't camo, sprint, equip AT, equip AI weapons, self heal, fire lmgs they pick up on the move, no FRP no forward heals. They do one thing, really well. And that's OK

Unless of course it say, has a smaller AOE. I'm which case it can be "on par" without being a wipe machine.

Again, combined with their short range and lack of utikity/combat flexibility the slightly more effecient grenade is acceptable. If you are not paying attention while shocks close to begin with you will be punished pretty hard, this just gives them burst potential. They can't camo, sprint, equip AT, equip AI weapons, self heal, fire lmgs they pick up on the move, no FRP no forward heals. They do one thing, really well. And that's OK

Agreed 100% hits every point on the head.

The bundle nade is stronger and comes with units with better or even much better mid and long range dps, but also less hp. The trade off for being more likely to wipe but have lower hp so there is risk involved.

I dont even know why this is an issue all of a sudden regarding shocks.

Because its a bad designed diversity doesnt exist?

Diversity shouldn't be achived by simply giving someone something that is strate of the bat will be better, because "it meant to be so".

Diversity always can be achived by ajusting availability and price.

And who has the rights to say it's badly designed or not?

Bundle grenades are straight better if you only look at wipe potential.
Volley grenades are straight better if you only look at damage potential.
Rifle Grenades are straight better if you only look at range and surprise factor.
Molotovs are better if you look at area denial.

I dont think that diversity achived by wiping potential in game based on preserving units and veterancy is good desing, dont you?

If you have issues with Shocks nades, then you should be screaming at the mere existence of bundle nades. Even worst, cammouflaged units been able to use those kind of nades.

Yes, 25% of bad result meaning 25% price reduction, ignoring everything else. Got it.

You are free to ignore whatever you want. Ignorance is bliss. You have the tools to open a thread asking for buffs to Sturm Officer or nerfs to Commisar.

Only the profile of the shock grenade is different than other elite grenades...normalizing might have been the intention but the change was not successful and that is what OP is actually saying...

Ok.

Lets give it 100 dmg and mirror its cost, fuse and AoE profile to that of PGs or Commandos.

There, normalized.
I have absolutely nothing against it.
Hell, lets normalize it asap.

snip to "What Mod team should had done"

That's basically YOUR OPINION. You prefer if it was a carbon copy of standard model grenade OR bundle grenade.
I think there's room for a middle ground.


I might see things different but i consider making Shocks grenade a copy of bundle ones a straight up buff, not the other way round if bundles were made to be exact copies of Shock ones.

Not my words but Sander.

Basically because the Sturm Officer is basically an Ober squad.
The NKVD panflets is a not a direct retreat, there's RNG as to which effect occurs and takes time.

Yeah, the new Sturm Offizier is primarily designed as a combat unit as with vet 5 (easy to get because of shared veterancy) it performs as a light Obers squad for a much cheaper price. The abilities are more secondary utility which is why I think it's okay for them to be slightly less efficient than the Commissar's, because that unit is primarily geared towards utility and isn't that powerful in combat. Similar to things like how elite anti-infantry units generally get a much more powerful grenade for only a slightly higher cost than regular grenades. Some units or commanders get more efficient tools due to various circumstances.

That's basically YOUR OPINION. You prefer if it was a carbon copy of standard model grenade OR bundle grenade.
I think there's room for a middle ground.


I might see things different but i consider making Shocks grenade a copy of bundle ones a straight up buff, not the other way round if bundles were made to be exact copies of Shock ones.

No this is not my opinion that is actually what "to be on par" means.

If the change creates something superior to cooked grenades due to AOE and something superior to bundle grenades due to fuse then one is not bring the shock's "on par" with other grenades one is making them better...

Shock;s grenades are not "on par" with cooked grenades they simply superior.

No this is not my opinion that is actually what "to be on par" means.

If the change creates something superior to cooked grenades due to AOE and something superior to bundle grenades due to fuse then one is not bring the shock's "on par" with other grenades one is making them better...

Shock;s grenades are not "on par" with cooked grenades they simply superior.

On par means similar performance, not carbon copy.
The cooked grenade is not exclusive to AI specialists. The bundle nade is though, and the patches aimed for a lighter nade than that (as Elchino said, a middle ground to the normal nade) with shorter fuse than the bundle.
You also completely neglect the context of the ability. According to your logic, giving Shocks a bundle nade would make sense. However I assume this would result in an overall buff to the unit.

Shock;s grenades are not "on par" with cooked grenades they simply superior.

Why is there a problem with shock nades being superior to cooked nades?
While certanly they are strong they have very little utility or flexibility. They certainly wont wipe anything like pgrens do with their b nade stg combo.

On par means similar performance, not carbon copy.

You're right. In English, "on par" factually means equal footing or same playing field with similar attributes. It does not mean a carbon copy. The term comes from sports, when two teams or two players are facing each other, and they both are considered to have similar chances to succeed, despite being different from each other, even if one of them has some kind of superiority or malus over the other, then they are "on par". Source: Englishman here, oi! So, the sentence to give Shocks a better grenade so that they're in the same playing field as other units' nades is valid and contextually correct.

Let's not focus on patch notes sentences. That's nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking schematics. We should Focus on the data that Hannibal presented earlier in the thread.

I also do not think that arguments should rely on sentences of patch notes which were most likely written as the very last thing before releasing the patch. We could argue that the grenade should be on-par only with other specialist anti-infantry units, and any infantry which is not a specialist anti-infantry unit, so a generalist and whichever infantry which has the potential for AT upgrades (not via drops) should be taken out of the equation of the term "on par". That's a can of worms there.

It's better to focus on units in their context, and not plain 1:1 data comparison.

And who has the rights to say it's badly designed or not?

Dinno, balance team maybe? If you take a closer look at past patch notes, you will see "lower squad wipe potentual" here is there. This was the scope for balance team for a long time.

Bundle grenades are straight better if you only look at wipe potential.
Volley grenades are straight better if you only look at damage potential.
Rifle Grenades are straight better if you only look at range and surprise factor.
Molotovs are better if you look at area denial.
If you have issues with Shocks nades, then you should be screaming at the mere existence of bundle nades. Even worst, cammouflaged units been able to use those kind of nades.

Wipe potentual doesnt come from only damage, you know. It comes from formations, number of models, how close to each other they are and so on. And most importantly fuze time.

I can care less about shock nades, because its still obvious that they will throw it. But because someone else dont mind it or dont care about it, or its easy to predict, doesnt automatically means ability is fine and its cost\perfomance are fine aswell.

You are free to ignore whatever you want. Ignorance is bliss. You have the tools to open a thread asking for buffs to Sturm Officer or nerfs to Commisar.

Do it for me, if you want to, I never intended to disscuss it. Just pointed it out as an example, that prices arent excactly justified, especially with new or reworked stuff added to the game.

On par means similar performance, not carbon copy.
The cooked grenade is not exclusive to AI specialists. The bundle nade is though, and the patches aimed for a lighter nade than that (as Elchino said, a middle ground to the normal nade) with shorter fuse than the bundle.

bundle grenades are available also to AT PG so they are "not exclusive to AI specialists", in addition I would rather not go any type debate about it since the only reason I used the term is because it is in the path notes.

Should it a carbon copy? not really but one the other had it should not that much better than cooked grenade

You also completely neglect the context of the ability. According to your logic, giving Shocks a bundle nade would make sense. However I assume this would result in an overall buff to the unit.

It is not "my" logic. The only point I have brought up is that change increased AOE but did not increase the fuse and now the grenade is superior than other grenades.

As for weather giving bundle grenades to shock would be a nerf or buff I would rather say it depend on how much lag there is. In very high lag it would a buff else it would probably be a nerf since it would be easier to dodge.

Why is there a problem with shock nades being superior to cooked nades?
While certanly they are strong they have very little utility or flexibility. They certainly wont wipe anything like pgrens do with their b nade stg combo.

It simply means that contrary to the intention as explained in he patch notes they where not brought up to be "on par" but where made superior instead.