Proposed Sturmpio changes

Problem is, they die way to fast. In a situation where you need to close the enemy (not even from long range), lets say rifles or penals without instanly jumping from fow, SPs usually would lose 2 models and depending on RNG 3 models, giving them weaker weapon early on would destroy them.

Stgs at least can be used on mid range for decent DPS, MP40 would force them into close range where they kinda risky to be used.

take away sturms at starting unit and give mg34 free to build from start

The proposed changes are minor changes. The one that does stand out is the flamer with sweeper option. the rest are just to make things a little more munition friendly.

for the people talking about sturms starting early game making them oppressive, it wasn't just the sturms, it was also volks coming in fast in large numbers to support which has now been nerfed for the sake of USF (the only faction that was struggling against it). OKW is no longer oppressive early. If your issue is a strong unit at the start, then im surprised none of you are talking about infantry sections, that will stomp every single axis unit in the early game, at all ranges.

take away sturms at starting unit and give mg34 free to build from start

If you want to play ost so badly, why won't you just play ost?

Sweeper + Shreck is probably(strong)fine.

People will tend to compare this to RE which are a weaker combat unit in the start of the match, require a sidetech upgrade and get a weaker AT weapon. (Though able to double up)
Sturms really shouldent be better than RE in every possible scenario just because they are more expensive.
So 1 Shreck and Sweeper is probably fine, 2 Shrecks and a Sweeper is not.

2x Shrek non doc squad for OKW is also pushing it i feel like.

Sweeper + Flamer turns Sturmpios into such a value package over other engineer units its quite wild. In cost, utility and popcap.

If you want to play ost so badly, why won't you just play ost?

didnt know that okw get a sniper, early mortar, good reinforce carry HT and 222 when they decide to give OKW early basic tool like a mg. but yeah...i like to play ost since they overall better option than get only volks.

You instead get a early basic tool that is an smg squad

You instead get a early basic tool that is an smg squad

this squad is a 4models squad which is only a flanking tool...not prevent anything like the supressing from a mg

except penals get the highest damage snare in the game with it...

Because it's a means to prevent them from being pushed as a single volley is not sufficient to out a normal tank below the snare threshold like it is for a shrek. You know this.

Because it's a means to prevent them from being pushed as a single volley is not sufficient to out a normal tank below the snare threshold like it is for a shrek. You know this.

One shot snare is not necessary for that damage only or damage a temp critical would be enough...

Single shrek was meant to be poor. It is like saying Penal AT package is poor, well that the purpose.

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Lol ok, if that's the level of debate you're proposing, forget it.

The purpose of the upgrade is to provide enough AT to deter LVs over time as well as prevent being overrun by all types of vehicles by getting a snare. I don't know what's so hard to understand about that. AT Penals, even isolated, cannot be pushed around by a LV or overrun by any vehicle.

Single Schreck squads are pretty much useless. The issue is the very high risk factor. If their first shot hits, then things might work out okay. If they miss, then good night because you might get pushed around until the end of time. Additionally, they always need support due to a lacking snare. And while the Schreck scales decently into the mid/late game, a single hit does not help you much against anything above LVs unless you can additionally snare the vehicle. The 120 damage does not replace a normal ATG shot, so you need a second hit to do anything. Now combine the mediocre performance with high cost, high reinforcement squads (that additionally do very well in the AI department, so you also have a performance loss there) and your result is a pretty useless upgrade.

The purpose of the upgrade is to provide enough AT to deter LVs over time as well as prevent being overrun by all types of vehicles by getting a snare. I don't know what's so hard to understand about that. AT Penals, even isolated, cannot be pushed around by a LV or overrun by any vehicle.

Single Schreck squads are pretty much useless. The issue is the very high risk factor. If their first shot hits, then things might work out okay. If they miss, then good night because you might get pushed around until the end of time. Additionally, they always need support due to a lacking snare. And while the Schreck scales decently into the mid/late game, a single hit does not help you much against anything above LVs unless you can additionally snare the vehicle. The 120 damage does not replace a normal ATG shot, so you need a second hit to do anything. Now combine the mediocre performance with high cost, high reinforcement squads (that additionally do very well in the AI department, so you also have a performance loss there) and your result is a pretty useless upgrade.

That's a good definition for the meaning to be a poor solution. So what's the problem? pshrek on Sturm are a last resort solution.

That's a good definition for the meaning to be a poor solution. So what's the problem? pshrek on Sturm are a last resort solution.

They are not a "last resort", they are useless. They are supposed to be supplemental, but they just end up to be a burden in your build since the upgrade turns a decent AI unit into something not worth using vs infantry and vehicles. They don't fit into any build, they don't diversify the game. And they are also no "last resort" as you say, because for 300+ MP you can just get a proper AT gun.

They are not a "last resort", they are useless. They are supposed to be supplemental, but they just end up to be a burden in your build since the upgrade turns a decent AI unit into something not worth using vs infantry and vehicles. They don't fit into any build, they don't diversify the game. And they are also no "last resort" as you say, because for 300+ MP you can just get a proper AT gun.

Well, I've had plenty a 3+ model wipes against sturmpios with 1 shreck. Usually late game my minesweeper vet3 echelons behind cover can't deal (4+1) with sturms rushing the cover with shreck and 3 automatic rifles. You have to retreat. And I've had (seldom) that stock vet3 echelons lose vs sturmpios with shreck (3+1). I have effectively used shreck sturms as small squads to capture loose points (close to nobody defending it). Shreck usually ensured that I don't get chased off by some light tank or sth. I don't think that sturms need any early game nerfs. They are toxic to play against as USF early but later on as an elite repair unit that can stand it's ground, it's good.

I think the power of sturms lie in the ability to chase off any assaulting infantry early on. IMHO, I've always used and seen it successfully used as a squad to help out OST set up MG in teamgames. I'd sent sturmpios with ally pioneers to a fuel point and secure it for the MG to come and set up and then go help another VP (so we control ~60% of map). Sure they drop off in direct combat usefulness later on but they were never intended as a spearhead, direct combat unit. They repair well, can stand their ground and can be upgraded with shreck, can swap out minesweeper, can wipe a squad in a couple of seconds flanking.

Sturms are supporting unit. They are intended to support and they do that job perfectly.

And they are also no "last resort" as you say, because for 300+ MP you can just get a proper AT gun.

Then get it. Often STshrek are used with a raketen nearby or a PUMA. They also provide good support to the AAHT.
You nailed it: STshrek aren't meant to be use alone as a single AT deterrent.

Now if you want to change that and make STshrek a primarily source of AT, balance wise you'll be forced to nerf other OKW AT sources because shrek + raketen + PUMA + mines... that's going to be hardly balanced in the end. You know there is a reason for Oshteer to not have access to dual shrek, pak, AT mines AND stock PUMA.

Well, I've had plenty a 3+ model wipes against sturmpios with 1 shreck. Usually late game my minesweeper vet3 echelons behind cover can't deal (4+1) with sturms rushing the cover with shreck and 3 automatic rifles. You have to retreat. And I've had (seldom) that stock vet3 echelons lose vs sturmpios with shreck (3+1). I have effectively used shreck sturms as small squads to capture loose points (close to nobody defending it). Shreck usually ensured that I don't get chased off by some light tank or sth. I don't think that sturms need any early game nerfs. They are toxic to play against as USF early but later on as an elite repair unit that can stand it's ground, it's good.

I think the power of sturms lie in the ability to chase off any assaulting infantry early on. IMHO, I've always used and seen it successfully used as a squad to help out OST set up MG in teamgames. I'd sent sturmpios with ally pioneers to a fuel point and secure it for the MG to come and set up and then go help another VP (so we control ~60% of map). Sure they drop off in direct combat usefulness later on but they were never intended as a spearhead, direct combat unit. They repair well, can stand their ground and can be upgraded with shreck, can swap out minesweeper, can wipe a squad in a couple of seconds flanking.

Sturms are supporting unit. They are intended to support and they do that job perfectly.

I am not arguing about their early game power or their late game role. My point was solely on the subdebate regarding the Schreck upgrade.
Their late game AI power is okay. For the price overall probably not that good, but they can still add to the overall push if needed. But losing 1/4 of that is quite a big deal, especially since it also increases the damage drop off with model loss. And as I explained, the damage versus vehicles is not that great

Because it's a means to prevent them from being pushed as a single volley is not sufficient to out a normal tank below the snare threshold like it is for a shrek. You know this.

I disagree with that. Although it may be true, the only other option for AT on a soviet squad would be stolen pschrecks like partisans, and no one wants that running around on penals...

Lol ok, if that's the level of debate you're proposing, forget it.

When it starts by comparing PTRS only to single schreck only and completely ignoring the reason you get the PTRS, there isn't much to talk with.

Sturms are supporting unit. They are intended to support and they do that job perfectly.

No, Sturms are expensive and a lot of pop cap so you normally have just one. That one then has to repair and sweep, plus it is the only doctrinal flamethrower and non-doc shrek unit. If you upgrade it with a shrek, it loses a lot of AI for something that isn't a good AT deterrent. Unless you build your trucks in your base, your one support unit is really vulnerable to indirect while repairing. Stacking more upgrades on your one support unit just means you can lose 300mp plus 120 munitions to a random arty strike.

Yes. All true.

They also need around 200mp repair/sweeper squad. Not 300mp/30reinforce power-squad or nothing.

This was the point I was trying to get across in my original post. Maybe I could've said it better or more concisely. It is interesting reading all the "giganerf" troll comments.

I doubt that Relic would agree to adding a second non-doc engineer to OKW, so it seems like the solution would be to make OKW more able to afford a second engineer.

I disagree with that. Although it may be true, the only other option for AT on a soviet squad would be stolen pschrecks like partisans, and no one wants that running around on penals..

I don't understand your point... Nobody DOES want penals with shreks, which is why they have ptrs'... Which are prone to abuse of they have no means to prevent being pushed.

The only issue with the combo imo is that in live penals start out as formidable fighters and can transition into emergency defensive AT which is too "easy" of a choice. Dominating all enemy infantry and then transitioning into beating back the counter to AI infantry is bad design.

Picking packages imo would be ideal and warrant the power levels.
Svt OR ptrs not AI THEN AT. One or the other. Offensive AI or Defensive AT.

I don't understand your point... Nobody DOES want penals with shreks, which is why they have ptrs'... Which are prone to abuse of they have no means to prevent being pushed.

I'm not saying the satchels shouldn't be there, I'm saying sturms need to be viable in the AT department like PTRS penals. 2x schreck sturms would be weaker pgrens. Especially because of the lack of bundle grenades to clear team weapons. Pgrens don't exactly break the game (when allies actually have rocket arty) so sturms wouldn't either.