Changes i feel grens need

Grens Kar98s do 16 dmg per shot, increasing it to 20 dmg per shot is +25%, my mathematically challanged friend.

It introduces the EXACT problem why tommies were nerfed.
By suggesting change like that, you've proven you not only have no slightest idea about balance, you haven't even learned from proven and fixed mistakes.

Thats not counting any rof or accuracy compensation. And holly-molly, buffing kars a bit would put them in the same spot at least alpha damage potential as any other mainline infantry, while still being on a fragile unit. This basically gives grens some chance to drop an enemy model early and have some frigging chance to even win engagements before they melt to double bars/brens and have to retreat. Because God forbid Grens would be actually GOOD at something.

There was never any mention of any of this, but if you did "adjust" to keep the DPS the same, you're re-introducing ANOTHER problem that was fixed long time ago - RNG cannons, as grens couldn't have high accuracy they have now, you'd basically make cons 1.0 when they were fine on paper, but high dmg and low accuracy meant they were trash in practice.

Oh I am also sure the only difference between Grens and Obergrens is their Kars damage output. Never mind far better abilities, veterancy, accuracy, great RA out of the door, sprinting, handnukes, running and gunning with lmg, and ambush camo.
Fact is though 4 Kars have avarage at best damage output to start with, which becomed laughable by mid game to the extent that unupgraded grens are completely non viable. the LMG 42 is effectively a defensive one, but a downgrade of their offensive damage, since either you move or fire the lmg, and you cant afford standing in he open with a unit with only 4 models.

Ohh boii, there is so much wrong with it that just reading it kills brain cells.
The only thing you got right was that obers get sprint from vet and have DIFFERENT nade, not better one.

Infantry section have their RA changed from 0.9 to 0.85 -> LITERALLY UNKILLABLE TERMINATOR HURR DURR REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Double the Gren damage -> reasonable buff.

Wehraboos be wehrabooin, as usual.

Infantry section have their RA changed from 0.9 to 0.85 -> LITERALLY UNKILLABLE TERMINATOR HURR DURR REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Double the Gren damage -> reasonable buff.

Wehraboos be wehrabooin, as usual.

Axis OP

Glorious WW1 tactics are being bullied as usual.

L2P issue for the axis fanboys.

Infantry section have their RA changed from 0.9 to 0.85 -> LITERALLY UNKILLABLE TERMINATOR HURR DURR REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Double the Gren damage -> reasonable buff.

Wehraboos be wehrabooin, as usual.

sure that was the only change Brits got #allied Fanboys

yes and why not double it and look what happens, like allied buffs were coming in that way.

U can nerf it later.

Brtis got raw battle performance buffs and Grens... here u can save up to 200+ Mp during a entire game that will definitv help u to win battles.

There is a huge difference between tweak level changes like they did and I'll thought out sledgehammer changes like LITERALLY DOUBLE THE DAMAGE OUTPUT. why even stop there? Why not give all members an lmg? I don't k ow why you are being so reserved with your modest suggestion of doubling the damage of a 240mps 60 mu upgrade.

yeay like the "tweak level" changes for brits ... or for the M36 years ago... or all the other funny things.

here is the funny thing about the 240+60+60 variant... in game u can do this just pick up another Mg42 from the ground. And what then? your grens shredd anything the see longerange with no why to keep up with double bar units... oh wait

We are talking about giving the actuel worst core unit lategeme relevance and a compansation for there weakness. And not about making Obers double MG vet 2 untis...

Whats the point on Buffing thier MG42 and let it cost 80 Mun?
Or make them 5 Men for 260MP .

The concept of being a low number, immoblie fireing squat with not great firepower is not rly good?

From my point of view i would pay more for the initaial cost and have better battle performence in the late. Consider that OST has no Uber call in Units for the late .... besides Stormtroopers.

And u mean reserved like 3tripple Elite zooks... or double grab waepons on all inf ? or just invent more units to fill roles the faction never had... or just add mortars because resons.



while OKW "pls gib cashes" NOOOOO!

PS: we all know that no one rly wants double the dmg on any unit from one patch to another.... but somehow people dont understand the point.

You're making this too easy lads.

If you want to discuss gren buffs, discuss. But if you suggest something
obviously stupid like "lets DOUBLE their dmg" then i will point it out and laugh XD

If you want to discuss gren buffs, discuss. But if you suggest something
obviously stupid like "lets DOUBLE their dmg" then i will point it out and laugh XD

Good thing nobody suggested anything like that, it's just some folks here have failed their math classes.

Gren Kar 98s do 16 damage per shot.
If Gren Kar 98s would do 20 damage per shot, that is 25% increase (not considering other tweaks).

16 x 1.25 is 20, not 32.
+25 % does not equal +100%.

Of course Grens do not need to double their damage. This is btw the same thing as the effect of Bolster (+25 firepower AND durability), except the dmg is still more concentrated in single models and can drop fast.

Their issue is that because the 4 model squads they drop model too fast to be able to do damage, which is the norm by late game when everybody is gunned up. Simply Grens can drop fast enough that they may not be able to drop even a single enemy model before retreat, which means they bleed OST only.

It could be a Tier 4 buff or 'purchased Veterancy' for all I care, and Grens could cost more. They may cost 260, they may be vulnerable 4 men squads if at least they HIT HARD.

The result of increased Gren alpha damage is that it changes tactics. With the current infantry balance against Grens you could charge headlong into them because you KNOW they won't be able to do enough damage and drop enough models and be able to win the fight, the raw firepower and durability will just push them away. Even if it's somewhat random, increased ability to drop some models imposes a RISK that makes such tactics unreliable and unviable, and imposes mutual bleed.

So it follows that if they do not a cannot have the durability of other squads, they should at least have the firepower (and firepower that also works when mobile, stationary grens dont work after mid game) to make them somewhat threatening and bleeding the opponent.

Good thing nobody suggested anything like that, it's just some folks here have failed their math classes.

I'm referring to Princeps "suggestion", not yours, relax.

The problem is that Grens lack the momentum of Assault Grenadiers and Osttruppen. They'Il do just fine holding one section of the map with support of the MG42, but many Wehrmacht players feel the need to push for an early advantage. With Grens you're giving your opponent the initiative to attack you and if he succeeds, you'Il have a hard time coming back against walls of sandbags, dozens of mines and 1-2 early shock vehicles.

With Grens it's harder to afford Pgrens and T2 units because of the high reinforcement cost of Grens and the cost of T1. You'Il have less Tellers because they need weapon upgrades in the mid game to trade efficiently. You'Il field slower giving your opponent a positional advantage. You'Il bleed harder to mines and sandbags.

With the OP Tiger of previous patch as pay-off, Gren builds were worth it if you were a good positional player and were patient enough to not go on the offensive until you forced some retreats. Now there's little reason to play so conservatively, the nerfed Tiger isn't worth the wait anymore, buffed P4's, Paks and T4 will do just fine in the late game. You should be exploiting Wehrmacht's very powerful T2 phase while you can, which Assault Grenadiers and Osttruppen are much more suited for. Of course 5 men Gren builds are also really powerful in a different way.

If Grens receive any buffs, I think it should address one of the early weaknesses I mentioned in comparison to Assault Grenadiers and Osttruppen, while not seriously affecting their lategame performance or their performance in team games. Here are some ideas:

- Allow them to make barbed wire to deny sandbags of Allied mainlines.
- Partially move the RA reduction from vet 3 to vet 1.
- Reduce the cost of their LMG's from 60 munitions to 50 munitions.
- Reduce the cost of T1 from 80 manpower to 40 manpower.
- Make their reinforcement cost 28mp and unaffected by the T4 bonus.
- Make bunkers 50mp and move 100mp cost to the upgrades so Grens have an early cover option that's not as spammable as sandbags (Elchino's idea)
- Reduce their buildtime by 10 seconds.

1 or 2 of these buffs would help Grens allot, alternatively reduce the effectiveness of other mainlines.

- Allow them to make barbed wire to deny sandbags of Allied mainlines.
- Partially move the RA reduction from vet 3 to vet 1.
- Reduce the cost of their LMG's from 60 munitions to 50 munitions.
- Reduce the cost of T1 from 80 manpower to 40 manpower.
- Make their reinforcement cost 28mp and unaffected by the T4 bonus.
- Make bunkers 50mp and move 100mp cost to the upgrades so Grens have an early cover option that's not as spammable as sandbags (Elchino's idea)
- Reduce their buildtime by 10 seconds.

Good ideas

I think other approaches that could be taken are:

- Removal of fuel cost from T1.
- 50mp extra available to Ost from minute 0 but added to the BP1 cost.
- Vet 1 medkits being free like the 5man Grens get.
- Removal of sandbags from all mainline infantry.

...

Or one can simply nerf allied infatry.

Or one can simply nerf allied infatry.

I added it for you, altough you'd also likely have to reduce the effectiveness of Osttruppen, Assault Grenadiers and 5 men Grens then.

I added it for you, altough you'd also likely have to reduce the effectiveness of Osttruppen, Assault Grenadiers and 5 men Grens then.

And all elite and assault infantry too. It's safe to say that at this point it's not feasible to adjust 30 infantry units just to make Grens feel a little better in 1v1s.

And all elite infantry too. It's safe to say that at this point it's not feasible to adjust 30 infantry units just to make Grens feel a little better in 1v1s.

Or you can nerf all the mainlines by removing/nerfing sandbags from them, which will drastically improve the game as a whole.

Or you can nerf all the mainlines by removing/nerfing sandbags from them, which will drastically improve the game as a whole.

A more simple way would be to greatly increase the time it costs for mainlines to make them, make it impossible to build them in capping circles or add a miniscule cost to them.

Cause if you'd just move all sandbags to engineer units, Sturmpioneers would become overburdened, Rifle Company and Infantry Company would turn to shit, Penals would get easy access to sandbags, among other things.

I added it for you, altough you'd also likely have to reduce the effectiveness of Osttruppen, Assault Grenadiers and 5 men Grens then.

Thank you

Actually I do not think that problem is the effectiveness of the osttruppen that is the issue here since they are weaker than the used to be but the timing of PG that make Ostruppen powerful.

And all elite and assault infantry too. It's safe to say that at this point it's not feasible to adjust 30 infantry units just to make Grens feel a little better in 1v1s.

In other words we are aware that we are in the wrong path but will continue down this path because we can not take two steps back.

No actually that does not make any sense. Reverting changes done in units is allot more "feasible" than messing with unit that were fine because the unit touched where overbuffed.

This path has been taken for the last 4 year and every time something is "fixed" two more thing get broken.

A more simple way would be to greatly increase the time it costs for mainlines to make them,

Yup, that was exactly what I had in mind as well.

I do think this would be a good excuse to move Spios down to 260-270mp though, which would benefit OKW as a whole by making it affordable to get a second engineer.

Having to deal with 100 Soviet mines with just your starting Spios is pure cancer.

In other words we are aware that we are in the wrong path but will continue down this path because we can not take two steps back.

That's not what I said at all. I said nerfing 30 units for the sake of buffing one is not feasible. That doesn't mean I'd agree with it. I don't. I think the current lethality level of infantry is good and fun, and if you think it should be lower then that's a fair point (even if I don't agree with), but that doesn't change the fact that what you suggest is logistically impossible at this point anyway.

Trash grens, make ostruppen mainline. Ostruppen fits better to the theme of ost being a defensive faction. Ostruppen combined with pgren and mg42 works so well since ostruppen won't bleed a lot of mp giving you the option the get and reinforce your pgrens but let's say I got 3 grens instead of ostruppen and everyone knows grens on their own is bad and will lose most engagements. They bleed so bad that their reinforce cost is close to an elite unit but is nowhere near the performance.

The t4 upgrade for inf was a good idea but still doesn't solve the early game ost problem. Getting a vetted gren is strong but getting a gren in the late game is a bad idea since they won't survive the few minutes and gets chopped up by everything they encounter. T4 5th man is a good idea but however if it was placed in the early game t2 maybe? it would improve gren performance in the early to mid game.

Let's compare ostruppen and grens:
Ostruppen 6man, has t1 faust, has a cover bonus and on top of that it can build its own cover! (What?! A condition itself can satisfy), T4 LMG upgrade.

Grens 4man, have stock faust, riflenade, lmg.

Riflemen approaching ostruppen in cover = Ostruppen mostly wins
Riflemen approaching grens in cover = Grens lose

Ostruppen outperforming grens is laughable since grens should obviously be better but they are not.

- Allow them to make barbed wire to deny sandbags of Allied mainlines.
- Partially move the RA reduction from vet 3 to vet 1.
- Reduce the cost of their LMG's from 60 munitions to 50 munitions.
- Reduce the cost of T1 from 80 manpower to 40 manpower.
- Make their reinforcement cost 28mp and unaffected by the T4 bonus.
- Make bunkers 50mp and move 100mp cost to the upgrades so Grens have an early cover option that's not as spammable as sandbags (Elchino's idea)
- Reduce their buildtime by 10 seconds.

1 or 2 of these buffs would help Grens allot, alternatively reduce the effectiveness of other mainlines.

1. Would not rly help in the late game.
2. woild not rly help in the late game. they are not good in the late thats why we got some T4 buffs and not T1.
3. oh yes .... 10 Mun!!!! that would rly help.
4. oh yes 40 MP would be to low what about 75?
5. oh yes 2 Mp over the whole game ... that would save up to what ? 40 Mp
6. maybe a trench?
7. shure than i can make more to feed the other mainlnes and elite inf.
why not spawn them without weapons and they get thier K98's after Vet1

pls more joke buffs that we have more of those threads for the next year!

And all elite and assault infantry too. It's safe to say that at this point it's not feasible to adjust 30 infantry units just to make Grens feel a little better in 1v1s.

so brits get 1000 Straight buffs because theyre a little weak in 1vs1.... but grens cant get one straight buffs to raw battlepower. Okay.

That's not what I said at all. I said nerfing 30 units for the sake of buffing one is not feasible. That doesn't mean I'd agree with it. I don't. I think the current lethality level of infantry is good and fun, and if you think it should be lower then that's a fair point (even if I don't agree with), but that doesn't change the fact that what you suggest is logistically impossible at this point anyway.

And this where you are wrong in my opinion. The patches have already changed the power level of 30 units instead of reverting the original changes to Penal and VG.

And you seem to continue changing the power level including the tommies recently.

Mainline infatry should be the core of most armies in most cases and their interaction should be fixed after all these patches. Any changes need for non stock unit should be made to doctrinal units and not stock mainline infatry.

Else you will simply continue to power creep units in endless circle.

Apply a good solution might not be easy but it much more "feasible" than applying band aid over band aid over band aid.