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The main issue with the KT is the nerfed armour. With the placement of Allied TDs as they are, any KT that gets build will be auto-hit and penned most of the time by TDs and usually spends most of the time behind the frontlines being repaired, coincentally by the most expensive repair squads that are out there. And it has to retreat because its also one of the slowest and most expensive units in the game, meaning its a magnet and any semi decent team will converge on it.
For this single reason building the KT and repairing it constantly by Sturmpios means that basically about 40% of your pop cap simply spends the time doing nothing useful, which is why nobody builds them these days.
The armour needs to be buffed so it may deflect more incoming damage and stay in the frontline and survice better. |
5 man gren with 5 currently kar or 1 mp 40 and 20 dmg rifle with both end up with model burst issue like pre neft section and there for required a similar neft.
Its a 60 muni upgrade that locks out LMG42 and doesnt have 100% accuracy.
I dont see how its more problematic than existing upgraded infantry bursting down models.
I dont see how its more problematic than existing 7 model conscript squads bursting down models (7x12 = 84, 4x20=80).
I can see however how it was problematic with bolstered (One-time global upgrade) IS which could wipe out 25% of the firepower of opposing 4 model squads, and auto win engagements, whereas its far less of an issue if the targated squad is made out of 5-6-7 models. Which is basically the base design of Grens and have always been - higher durability of Allied squads compensated with higher dps of German squads.
Existing German Infantry doctrinal bolster with G43 5 member or an LMG upgrade have probably better chance to do it, since its still just 4 men kar98 squad in essence and ALL have to hit in order to succeed. |
Non doctrine 5 man Grenadier upgraded unlocked after teching tier 1: Ostheer can choose between LMG42 upgrade ( only 4 man ) or choose 5 man squad ( block LMG42 + G43 upgrade and only 1 weapon slot picked up? ) for each individual Grenadier squad
The cost to get 5 man would be 60 muni
Maybe throw a bonus of idk, free healing with the 5 man upgrade or faster capping speed ( Like the bonus from the Assault Grenadier? )
Let's face it why everyone prefer Assault Grenadier or ostruppen this day: They got more than 4 man at the start, losing 1 model doesn't mean losing 25% firepower at the start.
I like this idea. Basically it would give you different upgrade paths for defensive grens (LMG42 as it is now) and offensive grens.
5 man offensive grens could be an upgrade (locking out LMG 42) for 60 muni at Battlephase 1 or perhaps BP 2. Instead of G43 they get a 5th model with a Assault Gren MP 40, making them less overpowering but better equipped to deal with close range units. The 5th model would buff the damage of the rest of the Kar98s to 20 (+25%). Offensive Grens would be you maneuvering element and would also nicely mimick actual WW2 Wehrmacht infantry squads and tactics.
Spread RA reduction at Vet 2 and 3 instead of damage reduction from Tier 4 building. And perhaps a weak grenade like the one on Panzerfusilier.
As for the simplest solution for Allied mainline power creep with dual wielded BAR/Bren, the solution could be that they start with only one weapon slot at start, but gaining another weapon slot at Vet 3, limiting the amount of DPS unless its a preserved unit. |
If you want to discuss gren buffs, discuss. But if you suggest something
obviously stupid like "lets DOUBLE their dmg" then i will point it out and laugh XD
Good thing nobody suggested anything like that, it's just some folks here have failed their math classes.
Gren Kar 98s do 16 damage per shot.
If Gren Kar 98s would do 20 damage per shot, that is 25% increase (not considering other tweaks).
16 x 1.25 is 20, not 32.
+25 % does not equal +100%.
Of course Grens do not need to double their damage. This is btw the same thing as the effect of Bolster (+25 firepower AND durability), except the dmg is still more concentrated in single models and can drop fast.
Their issue is that because the 4 model squads they drop model too fast to be able to do damage, which is the norm by late game when everybody is gunned up. Simply Grens can drop fast enough that they may not be able to drop even a single enemy model before retreat, which means they bleed OST only.
It could be a Tier 4 buff or 'purchased Veterancy' for all I care, and Grens could cost more. They may cost 260, they may be vulnerable 4 men squads if at least they HIT HARD.
The result of increased Gren alpha damage is that it changes tactics. With the current infantry balance against Grens you could charge headlong into them because you KNOW they won't be able to do enough damage and drop enough models and be able to win the fight, the raw firepower and durability will just push them away. Even if it's somewhat random, increased ability to drop some models imposes a RISK that makes such tactics unreliable and unviable, and imposes mutual bleed.
So it follows that if they do not a cannot have the durability of other squads, they should at least have the firepower (and firepower that also works when mobile, stationary grens dont work after mid game) to make them somewhat threatening and bleeding the opponent. |
There is a huge difference between tweak level changes like they did and I'll thought out sledgehammer changes like LITERALLY DOUBLE THE DAMAGE OUTPUT. why even stop there? Why not give all members an lmg? I don't k ow why you are being so reserved with your modest suggestion of doubling the damage of a 240mps 60 mu upgrade.
Grens Kar98s do 16 dmg per shot, increasing it to 20 dmg per shot is +25%, my mathematically challanged friend.
Thats not counting any rof or accuracy compensation. And holly-molly, buffing kars a bit would put them in the same spot at least alpha damage potential as any other mainline infantry, while still being on a fragile unit. This basically gives grens some chance to drop an enemy model early and have some frigging chance to even win engagements before they melt to double bars/brens and have to retreat. Because God forbid Grens would be actually GOOD at something.
Oh I am also sure the only difference between Grens and Obergrens is their Kars damage output. Never mind far better abilities, veterancy, accuracy, great RA out of the door, sprinting, handnukes, running and gunning with lmg, and ambush camo.
Fact is though 4 Kars have avarage at best damage output to start with, which becomed laughable by mid game to the extent that unupgraded grens are completely non viable. the LMG 42 is effectively a defensive one, but a downgrade of their offensive damage, since either you move or fire the lmg, and you cant afford standing in he open with a unit with only 4 models.
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A couple of things may benefit them
- Offensive buff / 20 damage per shot for the Kar98s, like Obers used to(?), which would provide a solution for being outdps and unable to maneuver much to cover, because they rely largely on LMG 42 for damage. Four Kars are just pretty much anemic to damage much any infantry charging at them. This pretty much means that they would become long range specialist with their high damage per shot and high accuracy but would not effect but reinforce their glass cannon nature
- DEFENSIVE BUFF give them sandbag option instead of a bunker, sure as heck they need it a lot more than bunkers.
- BETTER SCALING. RA and offensive bonuses becoming linear with Vet, like Cons
- ABiILITIES. Perhaps ambush camo with Vet or as an upgrade, this works well with them in the doctrines that have them, and would both help their survivability and surviviability, with a bit of an Eldar pedigree. Hard hitting and elusive.
- Relieve other units to help them. Grens usually carry wehr's late game offense on their shoulders, for which they are poorly suited for because of the general inferiority to Allied infantry and small number of squad members. Giving Support Armor or Heavy Armor tiers the ability to upgrade with repair pios would relieve OST pios to work with Grens for the late game, therefore indirectly increasing Wehr infantry presence.
Any combination of the above. |
Thread: Panther5 May 2020, 13:57 PM
I like the idea of 200 damage but I don't like the idea of a highly durable, manuvable tank.
Especially taking in blitz, it would be too much (command panther with Mark vehical and panther using heat round).
Same approach worked very well in COH1, where Panther was that very expensive, but super durable, hard hitting tank killer that could prevent the Allied mediums overrunning everything in the late game and allowed other Wehrmacht armor to operate effectively and often saved the day.
Its basically designed to slightly tip the armor game balance towards Wehr's favour, which is integral since Wehr is a reactive faction in the early game, and by design, it is to be carried by its tanks and generally trying to achieve tank superiority in the late game, not by its infantry .
Besides the current Panther, while effective, is more of an odd fast firing Superstug but nowhere near invulnerable to AT threats and can be easily lost if you are overextending just a bit too much.
Higher alpha strike ability is what this unit needs to be a deterrent and effective counter to predium spamming strategies. Of course you need to reduce the rate of fire by the same amount, so DPS would remain the same but geared towards a different goal. |
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I agree that Pios and also Combat Engineers should get some high veterancy RA / included damage reduction bonus from Tier 4, as they currently get none, which limits their usage very much in late game.
The combat potential of Pios / CEs would be otherwise not THAT bad, given the incredible CE price effectiveness with flamer updates, and that now MP 40s are decent in short range.
However the issue with Pios specificially is that regardless of any combat bonus they receive, Wehr Pios are super busy with repairing Wehr's tanks and sometimes building stuff, laying mines in the late game, getting little action. Effectively they are out of the game once tanks hit the field.
To relieve them of their incessant repair duties, it would should be considered that Wehr Tier 3 tank building may get a Repair Pioneer upgrade once Battle Tier 3 is researched. Wehr is pretty much carried into the late game by their tanks so its super important to them.
This (and Vetted RA / Tier 3 DR bonuses) would let Pios do more frontline duties and open up more viable strategies to Wehr sticking to Tier 3 tanks / fully upgrading. |
Thread: Panther28 Apr 2020, 13:33 PM
I'd personally would like the Panther more geared to killing premium medium tanks, heavies and non-640 medium tanks. Axis already have a lot of units geared to killing mediums and since Axis don't have anti-heavy TDs, that should be the Panthers role.
It would need adjustment and testing, but it'd focus on having a 200 damage gun vs those types of units along with possible penetration adjustments.
Even if it was accurate, most mediums can be defeated by a variety of other units. You can already dives lightly supported TDs with blitzing PIVs that are around earlier, can mop up infantry and put pressure throughout the map for less cost, pop, and in the case of Ostheer, tech.
"But mirage, it would club the Comet and T34/85!"
That's kind of its point of deploying the Panther. If the enemy is bringing the higher end tanks to the field, this is what is going to be fielded. And it's AI isn't super crazy so there is still ATG support, TDs, snares, etc.
Been saying this for years, Panther needs 200 damage to have a real profile (heavy/Predium killer) instead of a SuperStuG and 200 damage would achieve that.
Accuracy on the move should be slightly higher, but thats about it. Compensate the ROF to get the same DPS.
Actually, StuG could use some love as well, being the shortest range light/medium TDs, they should get the same armor as OST PzIV to be able to do their job effectively without being forced to spam them all the time. |
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Perhaps a considerable reduction of long range accuracy would help a bit - and I mean across the board. The fire and almost guaranteed to get a hit an pen from the FOW is what that is degenerating every late game 3vs3 and 4vs4 match into rocket-arty-behind-the-TD-wall meta.
This is somewhat OK with units like ATG, or units like the SU 85 - they are exposed and vulnerable, and promote very little other tactic other than good positioning and keeping distance, but a couple of misses should be expected at maximum range and it would add to the game and force players to manouvre their units more instead of just camping them there.
That or just add more curve to the pen values - decrease extreme long range pen and add a bit to short range pen. |
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