Changes i feel grens need

A unit which remains in combat recovers slowly from suppression. The funny thing is that you shooting at them with mortars, you are providing light cover which means they gain suppression recovery. NO to any indirect gaining any sort of suppression atm (not sure if you can implement it so it only deals suppression when a unit is already suppressed).

Not sure if you can implement it. It might be possible to make a different barrage mode (akin counter battery) that barrage units which are suppressed and then you make a whole different better profile for it. Still not convinced it would be used at all.

Well the only thing left is a rate of fire buff.

Well the only thing left is a rate of fire buff.

No, thanks, we've had turbomortar for years and it was horrible.

They perform poorly in early game due to lacking damage and the tendency for an early model drop and they suffer in late game due to 4 men size that plays havoc with their utility in screening, snaring and recrewing. Their only saving grace in mid-game is the power spike coming with their super expensive upgrades and the 251.

5th man muni upgrade at T4 that locks away weapon upgrades would hardly flip the balance as their k98s would be as bad as ever. Or just remove the T4 reinforce reduction and make 28 stock. They in no way perform for the 30 reinforce they have now.

I dont think 5th man upgrade at T4 is a good idea.

Fist, it obviously have to lock out the mg42 upgrade. But by the time you reach T4, all of your gren often already have Mg42 or doctrinal upgrades, since they are pretty much mandatory to stay competitive. But then, If you can keep your mg42 gren alive till T4, they probably veted to 2 or 3 and there for less likely to be wipe, so why bother replace then by fresh, unvet troop just to have 5 man.

Second, gren currently have 16 dmg rifles, so if 5th man upgrade being introduced, they will end up with the same issue with pre neft section - model bust, and then will require similar neft.

tier 4 double stg upgrade kappa.

on the more serious note one thing that i find annoying in grens is that they feel to have really slow rate of fire. While their damage per shot is higher yes i feel like they get always outgunned due to not be able to fire faster. I might as well be intended from the start, but i'd like to see how they would perform if their rate of fire was increased. It could be tied to in cover bonus or something.

make double lmg possible for another 60 mun after T4

or double the dmg after T4 for the LMG something like "Expert Trainig"

OR 5Man pls LMG.... bolster.

tier 4 double stg upgrade kappa.

on the more serious note one thing that i find annoying in grens is that they feel to have really slow rate of fire. While their damage per shot is higher yes i feel like they get always outgunned due to not be able to fire faster. I might as well be intended from the start, but i'd like to see how they would perform if their rate of fire was increased. It could be tied to in cover bonus or something.

could tie it to having a weapon upgrade or perhaps a battle phase/tier building

make double lmg possible for another 60 mun after T4

or double the dmg after T4 for the LMG something like "Expert Trainig"

OR 5Man pls LMG.... bolster.

Or none of that. At all. Because those are horrible ideas root and stem.

The only thing Grenadiers need imo is faster (I recommended 25% faster) veterancy gain after T4 (or maybe even BP3) to allow them to recover veterancy after wipes faster (what I recommended instead of this capture rate buff...) and possibly better veterancy; I would be in favor of Grenadiers getting their 25% rifle grenade attack range veterancy back (or a reduced version of it), and making the recharge time buffs apply to all their abilities and not just the panzerfaust. They absolutely don't need any more defensive or main weapon veterancy bonuses though.

In the late game, Ostheer has non-doc elite infantry (PzGrens) to do most of the things Grenadiers can't combat-wise, like short-mid and mobile engagements. 240mp+60 mun Grenadiers themselves losing versus 280mp+120muni or 270+90muni infantry does not really seem like a problem to me.

I honestly think Pioniers are the only Ostheer infantry that need a hard looking into, and legitimately might work well with a stock 5-man upgrade, since that'd help them recrew weapons and get in close with their MP-40s.

The only thing Grenadiers need imo is faster (I recommended 25% faster) veterancy gain after T4 (or maybe even BP3) to allow them to recover veterancy after wipes faster (what I recommended instead of this capture rate buff...) and possibly better veterancy; I would be in favor of Grenadiers getting their 25% rifle grenade attack range veterancy back (or a reduced version of it), and making the recharge time buffs apply to all their abilities and not just the panzerfaust. They absolutely don't need any more defensive or main weapon veterancy bonuses though.

In the late game, Ostheer has non-doc elite infantry (PzGrens) to do most of the things Grenadiers can't combat-wise, like short-mid and mobile engagements. 240mp+60 mun Grenadiers themselves losing versus 280mp+120muni or 270+90muni infantry does not really seem like a problem to me.

I honestly think Pioniers are the only Ostheer infantry that need a hard looking into, and legitimately might work well with a stock 5-man upgrade, since that'd help them recrew weapons and get in close with their MP-40s.

I fully agree and esp with the last 2 sections. The bonus sight needs to go if go 5 men or have the stock ability to do so, having every team weapon crewed with pio's and bonus sight would be op.

A couple of things may benefit them

- Offensive buff / 20 damage per shot for the Kar98s, like Obers used to(?), which would provide a solution for being outdps and unable to maneuver much to cover, because they rely largely on LMG 42 for damage. Four Kars are just pretty much anemic to damage much any infantry charging at them. This pretty much means that they would become long range specialist with their high damage per shot and high accuracy but would not effect but reinforce their glass cannon nature
- DEFENSIVE BUFF give them sandbag option instead of a bunker, sure as heck they need it a lot more than bunkers.
- BETTER SCALING. RA and offensive bonuses becoming linear with Vet, like Cons
- ABiILITIES. Perhaps ambush camo with Vet or as an upgrade, this works well with them in the doctrines that have them, and would both help their survivability and surviviability, with a bit of an Eldar pedigree. Hard hitting and elusive.
- Relieve other units to help them. Grens usually carry wehr's late game offense on their shoulders, for which they are poorly suited for because of the general inferiority to Allied infantry and small number of squad members. Giving Support Armor or Heavy Armor tiers the ability to upgrade with repair pios would relieve OST pios to work with Grens for the late game, therefore indirectly increasing Wehr infantry presence.

Any combination of the above.

I absolutely agree the best way to fix 240mp infantry behind a 10 fuel and 80mp building should have the same damage per shot as infantry that came the same time as tanks and cost 440mp. I can see no other solution that would work as elegantly as 13 second obers with a snare. I don't know why relic never thought of this (probably because they have the big dum!) also I know that 280mp infantry, lacking a snare with a 40fuel side tech were changed explicitly because they were bursting down models in a volley but that doesn't mean that 240mp Faust slinging infantry shouldn't!

It's more Allied mainline infantry being OP than Grens being bad. Riflemen buff was not really needed. I

This! +1

Both axis factions are fine but Allies just need some nerfs.

What about reducing the price of the medkits a make it vet0?

Or make bunkers free, but upgrading them will require MP+Muni.

People mostly go for osttruppen or assgrens because grens take it up the ass really hard at the start. Solution?

>slightly buff grens baseline performance
>slightly nerf grens veterancy performance

So grens get a bit better in the start and stay the same at vet3.

Just don't fuck it up with some out of hand spiraling triple buffs, no need for major changes just slight adjustments.

Or none of that. At all. Because those are horrible ideas root and stem.

Oh yes because the 10% caputure rate and 2 mp "Buff" was so good and make it all very well.... oh wait...

Grens need to cost more and having a better battle performence.
U just getting not enough for ur 240MP+ 60 Mun

grens have so much drawbacks against the other "mainlines".

This! +1

Both axis factions are fine but Allies just need some nerfs.

But they will never nerf allied core units... (more like 5+ Fuel )

And straight up Buffs ... nooooo better like 2mp reinfore BS.

While gameplaywise nothing changed rly... or we wouldnt discuss here.

The only thing Grenadiers need imo is faster (I recommended 25% faster) veterancy gain after T4 (or maybe even BP3) to allow them to recover veterancy after wipes faster (what I recommended instead of this capture rate buff...) and possibly better veterancy; I would be in favor of Grenadiers getting their 25% rifle grenade attack range veterancy back (or a reduced version of it), and making the recharge time buffs apply to all their abilities and not just the panzerfaust. They absolutely don't need any more defensive or main weapon veterancy bonuses though.

so ur solution is that gameplaywise it should change nothing but after ur grens get shredded u get more and they cant vet up to be once more shredded... ok why not just feed them directly to rifleman

In the late game, Ostheer has non-doc elite infantry (PzGrens) to do most of the things Grenadiers can't combat-wise, like short-mid and mobile engagements. 240mp+60 mun Grenadiers themselves losing versus 280mp+120muni or 270+90muni infantry does not really seem like a problem to me.

Pz Grens Elite inf ???? dude

Just give them make them better and put a pricetag on it.
Where is the Problem of 260mp+60mun gren that can actually do something in the lategame.
The Problem is not that they lose against other Inf directly, its more of the wipes through explosives and not being 4Men.

u somehow get too much from 280mp+120muni or 270+90muni or u get not enough from 240mp+60 mun.

I honestly think Pioniers are the only Ostheer infantry that need a hard looking into, and legitimately might work well with a stock 5-man upgrade, since that'd help them recrew weapons and get in close with their MP-40s.

especially if u consider that u MUST have at least to in the late for repair.
because OST have no other magic repair Options besides one commander.

We all know why Grens will never be buffed:

Axis OP

Non doc 5 Man upgrade for grens as an alternative for mg upgrade and non doc land matress for brits and game will be in great spot !

Oh yes because the 10% caputure rate and 2 mp "Buff" was so good and make it all very well.... oh wait...

Grens need to cost more and having a better battle performence.
U just getting not enough for ur 240MP+ 60 Mun

grens have so much drawbacks against the other "mainlines".







But they will never nerf allied core units... (more like 5+ Fuel )

And straight up Buffs ... nooooo better like 2mp reinfore BS.

While gameplaywise nothing changed rly... or we wouldnt discuss here.

There is a huge difference between tweak level changes like they did and I'll thought out sledgehammer changes like LITERALLY DOUBLE THE DAMAGE OUTPUT. why even stop there? Why not give all members an lmg? I don't k ow why you are being so reserved with your modest suggestion of doubling the damage of a 240mps 60 mu upgrade.

There is a huge difference between tweak level changes like they did and I'll thought out sledgehammer changes like LITERALLY DOUBLE THE DAMAGE OUTPUT. why even stop there? Why not give all members an lmg? I don't k ow why you are being so reserved with your modest suggestion of doubling the damage of a 240mps 60 mu upgrade.

Grens Kar98s do 16 dmg per shot, increasing it to 20 dmg per shot is +25%, my mathematically challanged friend.

Thats not counting any rof or accuracy compensation. And holly-molly, buffing kars a bit would put them in the same spot at least alpha damage potential as any other mainline infantry, while still being on a fragile unit. This basically gives grens some chance to drop an enemy model early and have some frigging chance to even win engagements before they melt to double bars/brens and have to retreat. Because God forbid Grens would be actually GOOD at something.

Oh I am also sure the only difference between Grens and Obergrens is their Kars damage output. Never mind far better abilities, veterancy, accuracy, great RA out of the door, sprinting, handnukes, running and gunning with lmg, and ambush camo.

Fact is though 4 Kars have avarage at best damage output to start with, which becomed laughable by mid game to the extent that unupgraded grens are completely non viable. the LMG 42 is effectively a defensive one, but a downgrade of their offensive damage, since either you move or fire the lmg, and you cant afford standing in he open with a unit with only 4 models.