Changes i feel grens need

Yes, exactly; and until people realize that OST's main problem is that other factions core design hard-counters them (and not small stat tweaks), OST as a whole is always going to toggle between OP and UP.

Let's just look at one core fact about OST's faction design: they rely heavily on static weapons:

• The entire faction is designed around support-weapon play; MGs covering grens, Mortars covering MGs, etc.
  
• The entire faction is designed around 4-man squads
  
• Grens moving accuracy is pretty bad, and their LMG can't fire on the move (and has awful setup/turn times).
  
• Their only non-doc 60+ range AT solution is the Pak40 (a support weapon)
  
• Their only non-doc CQC unit is the 4-man PGren squad, which is really a mid-range AI squad, and it also has to double as their only AT squad
  

We can argue about other stuff, like Panthers, Stugs, PWerfers and stuff all day - but the core of the faction can be summarized as "4 model units, remaining stationary in combat".

What do other factions have available to them in large quantities, regardless of doc choice? Powerful, auto-firing, Indirect fire, lots of smoke and units that can gap-close (firing on the move) and remain powerful at medium/close range.

How is OST supposed to play? The Pack-howitzer and Scott can force a squad to retreat in 2 shots each, so its not by being stationary. Their mainline infantry units can't fire on the move (and the LMG42 setups up slowly), so it's not by being mobile.

OST used to excel at moving "cover to cover", which was a pretty fun play style, but UKF simply does that better now (Cover 'Bonus', Moving Accuracy, Brens faster setup/aim time) while also having a larger squad size (bolster) and a cheaper reinforce cost per-model.

OST also used to excel in late-game; that was their gimmick - weak early game, but very power late game - but that's also been nerfed. Their late game is good, yes, but its no better than any other faction.

So, what is OSTs core play style? Note; 'core' - that means simply hard-locking the same commander very game isn't the answer. Docs are supposed to add flavor and provide specific tools - not make the faction playable.

Buffing Grens won't fix this.

Disagree entirely

Ostheer's core isn't static whatsoever, this couldn't be further from the truth. Ostheer's core is hammer and anvil.

You have your very strong defensive units, the MG42 best defensive MG in the game with wide cone and suppresses excellently, Pioneers with 42 sight to spot, super early sniper from mainline infantry building, tellers that 1 shot LVs, Osttruppen that can build trenches when available at 0CP, Panzerwerfer which can wreck baited units if the path is predicted as well as support weapons, 222 with great sight, map hack ability and crazy spotting scopes, Elephant TD, artillery pak43 and lefh and concrete repair bunkers.

You have amazing mobility options, with panzergrenadiers that can sprint near vehicles, are great on the move and with nuke grenade, 222 that can carry you hard if rushed at 4mins with anti super light vehicle power, anti HT power, anti infantry power and speed to chase snipers, flame HT to clear garrisons, support weapons and clumped units, strong tank options with Panzer IV, StuGG, Panther that can hold their own and then some, the Brummbar heavy breakthrough assault gun and a generalist Tiger heavy tank. You also get Grenadiers, which are supposed to join the attack and focus important enemy units like MGs from a distance, as well as with their rifle grenades and carry fausts with great range. Doctrinally you can also get strong indirect and passenger halftrucks, the 250/7 and 250.

Now let's talk about the issues with the faction:

1) The Ostheer mortar is a travesty, you don't get flares like the soviet mortar and its performance is lacking, meaning you lose hard in terms of indirect fire. Your issue with indirect fire is further reinforced by the late arrival of the panzerwerfer at T4 and that its harder to use effectively than a Katyusha due to a larger delay from clicking on a target and the rockets arriving, meaning you have to aim and bait better.

2) Grenadiers CANNOT ATTACK SANDBAGS, if you put any allied mainline behind a sandbag the Grenadier squad alone cannot attack. In contrast, Sections and Riflemen have grenades, Riflemen have doctrinal sprint and Cons have sprint and molotov. Grenadiers only have a rifle grenade which is antithetical to the situation at hand, due to slow animation and delivery, telegraphed intention and ease of movement of infantry.

3) No stopgap mobile AT before the Panzer IV, which means Stuart/T70 can run wild and abuse your 222.

4) Lack of doctrinal upgrades for the generalist medium role. Only 1 doctrine that also has assgrens (therefore is niche) has the OKW P4. Meanwhile USF gets Easy 8s with Rifle company and 2 doctrines with Dozers, UKF has stock comet and Soviets have 3 T34/85 doctrines.

5) The command tank is in a heavily nerfed state, which destroys any attempt at a defensive playstyle.

6) The Panther is a heavy TD specialist which fights in a meta where heavies have been nerfed to oblivion and has to contend with the excellent StuGG.

7) Early field presence with a Grenadiers start SUFFERS. You have to build T1 and then build a Grenadier. Meanwhile the Soviet/USF/UKF player has more units on the field and faster than you, which makes the early game a struggle. Yes you have the mg42 but unlike teamgames, where you can rush your general axis of approach with the pios and follow with the mg42 without a care in the world then backcap with Grens, in 1v1 you have to set up the 1st engagement carefully so it's very easy to get your MG flanked by more numerous enemy units and the slow horizontal rotation of the mg42 doesn't help.


So, what solutions do I have for these issues? These are the ideas which in my view would absolutely fix Ostheer for good.


1) Buff the Ostheer mortar's animation speed, meaning setting up, tearing down, picking it up and moving it around to change direction. Not the firing animation, which affects rate of fire, just the rest of the animations. This will make it A LOT better at being a defensive mortar which can change targets rapidly and start engaging the correct enemy target.

2) The best solution in my view is to take away sandbags from all mainlines. If not, give Grenadiers stock stun grenades at vet 2, the ones from elite troops, but less AoE and more cooldown. That way you can actually attack an enemy behind a sandbag without being laughed at. Either that or give them a vet ability to fire the mg42 at an enemy unit and ignore 10%-30% of cover for a few (5-15) secs for a munitions cost. Just don't give them a vet 0 actual skill, keep it behind vet 2 which is the midgame when enemies start camping behind bags.

3) I think a little bit of extra pen on the 222 would help a lot.

4) Not much can be done unfortunately. Maybe allowing the Ost player to buy skirts for his P4 for 100 muni once T4 is up?

5) Remove the cmd P4 buff to allied units and make it 20% damage reduction only for the original player's units.

6) Allow the Panther to vet up a bit more easily.

7) Remove 50mp from T1 cost and add it to the BP1 cost. This would make it less beneficial to skip T1 with 0CP call in infantry.

Except Penals don't have a snare unless they forgo their anti-infantry capability and are locked behind tech.

That does not change moving DPS, it actually quite irrelevant. But I add riflemen that actually have snare just to make you happy.

G43 grenadier DPS on the move range (0/15/35)
17.7 11.1 6.5

Penal
16.2 12.3 6.3

Riflemen
18.52 9.585 4.69

and that is pre-buf

Riflemen with single bar

21.605 14.17 5.445

again pre-buff

It's not just about moving DPS. Grenadiers are also much cheaper both in recruitment and reinforcement than both of the units you're citing.

You're not making the point you think you're making.

It's not just about moving DPS. Grenadiers are also much cheaper both in recruitment and reinforcement than both of the units you're citing.

You're not making the point you think you're making.

They actually cost more to reinforce... and if you factor in t1 the cost of the first 2 is as much as the first 2 rifles + build time.

edit : for rifles. I can't remember penal reinforce costs atm

They actually cost more to reinforce... and if you factor in t1 the cost of the first 2 is as much as the first 2 rifles + build time.

edit : for rifles. I can't remember penal reinforce costs atm

Grenadiers cost more to reinforce than all other mainlines. That's one of the main reasons they're so bad.

Grenadiers cost more to reinforce than all other mainlines. That's one of the main reasons they're so bad.

Per model, yes.
Per squad, no.

For grens, I think MOSTLY they are fine, I feel more like allied infantry have been over tuned. Things like Tommie ha ING a lower reinforcement cost but also being more durable and then better in cover as well is just bull shit imo. But something I would like to see, given the relationship with ost and the mg42 is a bonus vs suppressed units so that ost can kill, not just control allied infantry. This still keeps osts combined arms design intact and doesn't make grem spam any more viable yet definitely gives grens a bit more bite.

Bonus damage vs suppressed units for both Grens and the mortar would be really good.

Bonus damage vs suppressed units for both Grens and the mortar would be really good.

Not necessarily the mortar, but you would just need to reduce the penalties (all units have it) when firing upon suppressed squads.

IIRC for most weapons, acc modifiers against suppressed units is 0.5 and for pin is 0.25
SMGs are at 0.75 and 0.5 respectively. You could make this apply to Grens Kar.

Not necessarily the mortar, but you would just need to reduce the penalties (all units have it) when firing upon suppressed squads.

Ostheer’s core design relies on the mortar and its underperforming right now.

Per model, yes.
Per squad, no.

Thank God smaller squads cost less to reinforce. Who would have ever considered that? Maybe if they were bigger they would cost more and die a little less quickly.

Ostheer’s core design relies on the mortar and its underperforming right now.

Nah, it's the MG42 which is why it was made T0. All indirect units are in the lower spectrum of performance (compared to before) and it's fine.

If you want to buff it, it should never be in raw damage performance.

Nah, it's the MG42 which is why it was made T0. All indirect units are in the lower spectrum of performance (compared to before) and it's fine.

If you want to buff it, it should never be in raw damage performance.

Well like I said at the top of the page, I’d like to see the Ostheer mortar get faster animation speeds so that it’s more reactive and easier to switch between targets rapidly. I’d also like to see a 10-20% damage increase vs suppressed units.

Well like I said at the top of the page, I’d like to see the Ostheer mortar get faster animation speeds so that it’s more reactive and easier to switch between targets rapidly. I’d also like to see a 10-20% damage increase vs suppressed units.

Which i think it's doable right now with small arm fire, specially a single weapon profile. Mortars were made to not kill on 1 shot any models and that would put it back with just a 10% increase.

Which i think it's doable right now with small arm fire, specially a single weapon profile. Mortars were made to not kill on 1 shot any models and that would put it back with just a 10% increase.

Then what if instead of extra damage it dealt more suppression to already suppressed units? So that if an enemy rifle squad is suppressed and a mortar shot lands near it, the shot will deal extra suppression.

Or you could decrease scatter when targetting suppressed squads.

Then what if instead of extra damage it dealt more suppression to already suppressed units? So that if an enemy rifle squad is suppressed and a mortar shot lands near it, the shot will deal extra suppression.

Or you could decrease scatter when targetting suppressed squads.

A unit which remains in combat recovers slowly from suppression. The funny thing is that you shooting at them with mortars, you are providing light cover which means they gain suppression recovery. NO to any indirect gaining any sort of suppression atm (not sure if you can implement it so it only deals suppression when a unit is already suppressed).

Not sure if you can implement it. It might be possible to make a different barrage mode (akin counter battery) that barrage units which are suppressed and then you make a whole different better profile for it. Still not convinced it would be used at all.