Changes i feel grens need

you just stated the game design yes these factions are meant to be different but get this,

60 range TD can be countered with paks (with stun! almost a killing ability this)

Brummbar, literally better AI than any US unit I guess the ISU-152 has the same AI stats as Brum in allied forces.

T0 best mg in the game.

Sniper.

grens are reliable too now, 240 mp free rifle nade and faust, 28 mp reinforce, forward med kit healing, can make bunker are good at long range, fast capture!. And you also have pzgren with nuke nade and pretty good RA and TS.

PZwrfr best AI ranged vehicle.

OST has a 70 range 300 dmg call in vehicle, M4 sherman and M36 have an hp of 640.

Pershing vs Tiger.

And again supreme call in inf can be beaten by bleeding them out with snipers and mgs.

You are right
been watching team games since the wbp.
Axis Ost are winning most of the time

Hmmmm..dont look weak.

I think grens can use a 10-20% extra dmg vs suppressed units. Grens are quite poor support for mgs. They just don't do enough dps to scare away units that flank the mg especially now that nade tech is soooooo cheap for allies.

The players that still use gren usually get 5man and they SPAM them to try to negate not going for the MG which is more micro than it's worth in certain maps.

I think grens can use a 10-20% extra dmg vs suppressed units. Grens are quite poor support for mgs. They just don't do enough dps to scare away units that flank the mg especially now that nade tech is soooooo cheap for allies.

The players that still use gren usually get 5man and they SPAM them to try to negate not going for the MG which is more micro than it's worth in certain maps.

Disregarding if Grens should be further changed or not, i like the concept at first.

IIRC for most weapons, acc modifiers against suppressed units is 0.5 and for pin is 0.25
SMGs are at 0.75 and 0.5 respectively. You could make this apply to Grens Kar.

you just stated the game design yes these factions are meant to be different but get this,

60 range TD can be countered with paks (with stun! almost a killing ability this)

Of curse i forgot this, then to all people out there" no more Jackson is op threads and pls build more paks... easy"

Brummbar, literally better AI than any US unit I guess the ISU-152 has the same AI stats as Brum in allied forces.

u know that sherman has HE shells that rip apart anything with 4 Men? not to tell u how "funny" a KV8 can be.

T0 best mg in the game.

after ass grens, this is the only viable start and the only reason why u can still playing OST

Sniper.

SU laughs at u

grens are reliable too now, 240 mp free rifle nade and faust, 28 mp reinforce, forward med kit healing, can make bunker are good at long range, fast capture!. And you also have pzgren with nuke nade and pretty good RA and TS.

they are not reliable or we woudnt have this thread here.

PZwrfr best AI ranged vehicle.

Nope its not

OST has a 70 range 300 dmg call in vehicle, M4 sherman and M36 have an hp of 640.

And there is barly no 2v2+ where dont see and ELe because u HAVE to bring at least one late AT option and Pak43 is meh.

Pershing vs Tiger.

And what ?

And again supreme call in inf can be beaten by bleeding them out with snipers and mgs.

good luck trying to micro u mg and sniper when face doubled up rifles and paras and get hammerd by pack howies.

You are right
been watching team games since the wbp.
Axis Ost are winning most of the time

Hmmmm..dont look weak.

again the question asks about 2v2+, yes Axis is far better in 2v2+ modes

Of curse i forgot this, then to all people out there" no more Jackson is op threads and pls build more paks... easy"



u know that sherman has HE shells that rip apart anything with 4 Men? not to tell u how "funny" a KV8 can be.




after ass grens, this is the only viable start and the only reason why u can still playing OST



SU laughs at u



they are not reliable or we woudnt have this thread here.



Nope its not



And there is barly no 2v2+ where dont see and ELe because u HAVE to bring at least one late AT option and Pak43 is meh.



And what ?



good luck trying to micro u mg and sniper when face doubled up rifles and paras and get hammerd by pack howies.

There There

I think its funny, people say grens are fine, but when i watch coh2 on twitch and people play ostheer, they only use 2 doctrines.

And those 2 doctrine was newly added or reworked.

Meanwhile ostheer has 20 other commanders who lies in the dust, cause grens sucks.

I think its funny, people say grens are fine, but when i watch coh2 on twitch and people play ostheer, they only use 2 doctrines.

And those 2 doctrine was newly added or reworked.

Meanwhile ostheer has 20 other commanders who lies in the dust, cause grens sucks.

1) There is this thing called META people tend to use. Consequence of META is units that are being fine may not be used, because they are not THE very best choice at high end game. But that's a problem vast majority of playerbase does not have.

2) You have plenty of top players using grens just fine, they simply don't spam them.

3) Grens are cheapest mainline infantry with no side costs and best support teams surrounding them from the get go - don't expect them to go toe to toe with anything stronger then conscripts, because they are most certainly not meant to.

1) There is this thing called META people tend to use. Consequence of META is units that are being fine may not be used, because they are not THE very best choice at high end game. But that's a problem vast majority of playerbase does not have.

2) You have plenty of top players using grens just fine, they simply don't spam them.

3) Grens are cheapest mainline infantry with no side costs and best support teams surrounding them from the get go - don't expect them to go toe to toe with anything stronger then conscripts, because they are most certainly not meant to.

1.) if units are fine they would be part of meta, how could a MAIN LINE INF not being used in a large portion of games mean that they are fine.

2.) Cuz ther the only main line inf that cant be spammed cuz they suck.

3.) its funny, that was the same excuse ppl used for cons and why they sucked and you were against the same reasoning which now you yourself is using for grens, what a hypocrite.

1.) if units are fine they would be part of meta, how could a MAIN LINE INF not being used in a large portion of games mean that they are fine.

Except, it IS used in large portion of games.
You literally are talking about 2-3 players.

2.) Cuz ther the only main line inf that cant be spammed cuz they suck.

240mp60mun inf will not perform as well as 280mp120mun + 250mp and 40fuel in side costs one, yes, what did you expected here again? Its called balance.

3.) its funny, that was the same excuse ppl used for cons and why they sucked and you were against the same reasoning which now you yourself is using for grens, what a hypocrite.

Cons were always fine in early game.
They ALWAYS had SCALING problem WITHOUT doctrine that gave them weapon upgrade.

In case you still don't see the absolute stupidity of your argument, imagine that LMG42 is exclusively doctrinal and stock you have nothing but fausts and grenades to help you in combat - THAT is what was con problem.

Except, it IS used in large portion of games.
You literally are talking about 2-3 players.


240mp60mun inf will not perform as well as 280mp120mun + 250mp and 40fuel in side costs one, yes, what did you expected here again? Its called balance.


Cons were always fine in early game.
They ALWAYS had SCALING problem WITHOUT doctrine that gave them weapon upgrade.

In case you still don't see the absolute stupidity of your argument, imagine that LMG42 is exclusively doctrinal and stock you have nothing but fausts and grenades to help you in combat - THAT is what was con problem.

EXACTLY, cons problem was they got wrecked in the lategame but were fine in the early game. Grens right now, gets wrecked at ALL stages of the game, early, mid and late game.

EXACTLY, cons problem was they got wrecked in the lategame but were fine in the early game. Grens right now, gets wrecked at ALL stages of the game, early, mid and late game.

And now we've run the full circle.

CHEAPEST infantry will perform WORST, ESPECIALLY with BEST support weapons next to them if you REFUSE to use these support weapons.

If you still don't get it, tell me, I'll get some crayons and try to explain it to you again.

And now we've run the full circle.

CHEAPEST infantry will perform WORST, ESPECIALLY with BEST support weapons next to them if you REFUSE to use these support weapons.

If you still don't get it, tell me, I'll get some crayons and try to explain it to you again.

ahh so now you want to bring in support weps, something every other faction has access to also. Grens simply dont support ther motors and mg42's effectively enough, HENCE why ostheer struggles. I do not know why you keep rambling on about balance WHEN YOU DON'T EVEN PLAY THE GAME. So instead of sprouting ur usual nonsense, play the latest patch as ostheer then comeback and talk, srsly its ridiculous.

It might blow your mind, but the game is not about 1 unit vs other in complete vacuum, where other units can enter the field only after the first one is dead.

In evaluating units, you take into account costs, timing and OTHER UNITS SUPPORTING IT AKA faction context.
This is why volks and rifles specifically are very strong on their own, they have limited and delayed access to support weapons.

If you're still in denial about it, I guess you are also in full support of reinstating 2 weapon slots for conscripts.

CHEAPEST infantry will perform WORST, ESPECIALLY with BEST support weapons next to them if you REFUSE to use these support weapons.

Kat, you got lost in the books of old age.
OST team weapons are not the best currently.
On paper, yes. On practice it is not.
And before you spit L2P address first how often OST team weapon get decrewed/stealed/retreat forced compared to how many models they kill/force retreat/wipe

Only after that you can claim OST TW are the """"""B E S T"""""

It might blow your mind, but the game is not about 1 unit vs other in complete vacuum, where other units can enter the field only after the first one is dead.

In evaluating units, you take into account costs, timing and OTHER UNITS SUPPORTING IT AKA faction context.

Yes, exactly; and until people realize that OST's main problem is that other factions core design hard-counters them (and not small stat tweaks), OST as a whole is always going to toggle between OP and UP.

Let's just look at one core fact about OST's faction design: they rely heavily on static weapons:

• The entire faction is designed around support-weapon play; MGs covering grens, Mortars covering MGs, etc.
  
• The entire faction is designed around 4-man squads
  
• Grens moving accuracy is pretty bad, and their LMG can't fire on the move (and has awful setup/turn times).
  
• Their only non-doc 60+ range AT solution is the Pak40 (a support weapon)
  
• Their only non-doc CQC unit is the 4-man PGren squad, which is really a mid-range AI squad, and it also has to double as their only AT squad
  

We can argue about other stuff, like Panthers, Stugs, PWerfers and stuff all day - but the core of the faction can be summarized as "4 model units, remaining stationary in combat".

What do other factions have available to them in large quantities, regardless of doc choice? Powerful, auto-firing, Indirect fire, lots of smoke and units that can gap-close (firing on the move) and remain powerful at medium/close range.

How is OST supposed to play? The Pack-howitzer and Scott can force a squad to retreat in 2 shots each, so its not by being stationary. Their mainline infantry units can't fire on the move (and the LMG42 setups up slowly), so it's not by being mobile.

OST used to excel at moving "cover to cover", which was a pretty fun play style, but UKF simply does that better now (Cover 'Bonus', Moving Accuracy, Brens faster setup/aim time) while also having a larger squad size (bolster) and a cheaper reinforce cost per-model.

OST also used to excel in late-game; that was their gimmick - weak early game, but very power late game - but that's also been nerfed. Their late game is good, yes, but its no better than any other faction.

So, what is OSTs core play style? Note; 'core' - that means simply hard-locking the same commander very game isn't the answer. Docs are supposed to add flavor and provide specific tools - not make the faction playable.

Buffing Grens won't fix this.

Ostheer actually has probably the best option for mainline infantry firing on the move with G43s, and those come in a few commanders that cater to a different playstyles.

Ostheer actually has probably the best option for mainline infantry firing on the move with G43s, and those come in a few commanders that cater to a different playstyles.

G43 grenadier DPS on the move range (0/15/35)
17.7 11.1 6.5

Penal
16.2 12.3 6.3

Except Penals don't have a snare unless they forgo their anti-infantry capability and are locked behind tech.

IMO Doomlord has done an excellent job to describe OST, while also being objective . I agree with him and as he also said, you can find some less important points to argue about, but in the end OST core is between a rock and a hard place.