Ostheer Puma changes

Hello all,

a couple of patches ago the Ostheer Puma was placed behind tech (buildable in T2, requires BP3) in an effort to put a halt to the Mobile Defence meta. This goal was achieved, but it turned out that the change was so severe that the doctrine is almost never used since then, which has robbed Ostheer of a powerful tool.

Since then, the doctrine has seen another quite severe change (nerf) as the Command Panzer IV was changed to require tech (either T3 or T4 deployed) in line with all other medium/heavy call-in units.


With the new patch currently trialling a cost change for BP3, the Puma's timing is pushed up even further. This has prompted us to think about switching up (or back) its timing and method of deployment.

I personally think that now that the Command Panzer IV is behind tech, the synergy between the AT and follow-up AI call-ins has been broken up and the Puma could probably return to a 5 CP call-in. An additional change (to be safe) could be to swap Panzer Tactician for Stuka Smoke Drop, which would reduce the doctrine's synergy of early highly aggressive and durable (because of PT smoke) light vehicles followed up by the Puma to immediately shut down any Allied vehicular counter. Or the Puma could be made into a Command vehicle (at 5 CP) with a limit of 1, as was done with the Valentine.


However, opinions about the Ostheer Puma are very divided. The main problem is that any change to the Puma risks bringing back the MobiDef meta, as the Puma fills a very crucial gap in Ostheer's line-up.

Therefor, we are interested to gauge the community sentiment about this unit.


P.S. if a mod could sticky this, that'd be great

YES AN OFFICIAL PUMA THREAD HYPE HYPE HYPE

Could we add this Battlephase reshuffle to the poll?

https://www.coh2.org/topic/103763/ostheer-tech-restructure

It doesn't change nondoctrinal timings, but lets you put the Puma and StuG/e between T2 and T3 where it belongs.

So here's my own wild idea:

Everyone is already sick of the command P4 since it's pretty trash in 1v1 thought serviceable in 3v3/4v4. I have two different proposals.

1) Make the Command PIV a straight up upgrade, a Panzer IV F2 just like the one built in T3, but with the command aura. Then make the Puma a 5CP bundle with the 2 Osttruppen (something like "Deploy Emergency Reserves" for like 600mp/80fuel) and put something else to replace the Osttruppen reserves.

2) Make the Puma the Command Tank. Give it the 10% reduction aura, possibly another small ability like calling a recon plane above it like the UKF command vehicle can. Replace all command P4s across all doctrines with this version. Then replace the command P4 in the doctrine with something thematic like a supply drop, or a 250 HT (like in german inf).

PS: If the Puma as a command vehicle is too good, reduce its scaling via its veterancy. Make it utility oriented instead of stats oriented.

While I voted for the command puma solution, I would also recommend to take a look at the BP reshuffle idea, as Lago suggested, which I equally like:

https://www.coh2.org/topic/103763/ostheer-tech-restructure

/pinned

Bring the Puma back to 5 CP and replace the Command Panzer IV with something different, like a King Tiger or Pz4J buildable from the HQ or something.

Then, replace Panzer Tactian with Stuka smoke to make it less cheesy. Problem solved.

Other- I'd vote to have a separate "Puma Tech" (akin to UKF AEC) attached to Tier 2 building with a buildable Puma. Adjust teching times and Puma cost according so that it arrives around desired timing.

This eliminates any "Panic Puma" cheese and makes it more of a thoughtful choice. Personally I don't see Puma spam by itself as an issue and any synergy with Command P4 requires further tech so allowing more than one 1 Puma should be fine.

Command puma all the way. Its the cutest battle cat of all it deserves some love

Command Puma is good idea,and I wish rework command P4……

I'm going to go with 'other', since I don't think any of the choices actually address the problem.

#1 - Doesn't fix Mobile Defense being basically pointless now.

#2 - This just reverts things back to "panic puma", since nothing else has changed regarding the unit (iirc).

#3 - This avoids fixing the problem with Panzer-Tac (1-click 'free escape' button); but I suppose this is the most viable out of the bunch. However, "panic puma" would still be possible, and it has its own smoke ability, anyway.

#4 - I don't think multiple Pumas were ever really a problem, at least not that I saw. It was mostly used to hard-counter mid-game LVs and somewhat hold off mediums.



My 'radical puma change' idea would be to keep it where it is now (T2 + BP3), but make it non-doc. OST is incredibly vulnerable to LVs (T70...), and doesn't have any major counters to them early on, whereas all the other factions have decent AT/AI LVs (the 222 is pretty bad). This would require some stat changes, but it could be interesting.

Could we add this Battlephase reshuffle to the poll?

https://www.coh2.org/topic/103763/ostheer-tech-restructure

It doesn't change nondoctrinal timings, but lets you put the Puma and StuG/e between T2 and T3 where it belongs.

+1 to this.

Lago's idea is very good.
I hope the mod team is seriously considering these changes.

If this is not up for discussion, I would like the command Puma option:

Give it some utility it does not need early-mid game but is useful in the late game, up the price a bit for that. So the Puma comes slightly delayed and does not screw with the timings like previously, but it is still worth getting.

Not sure what that could be though. Arty might be problematic due to the self spotting. Call in smoke drop? Targeted higher sight range for another vehicle? Or maybe range directly (so OST gets temporarily their desired 60 range TD)

+1

Vote for Stuka Smoke drop as well for more versatility! Ptac is bull but Smoke Drop is versatile and very for assaults as well keeping in with the Mobile theme.

Command p4 is an absolute trash unit that needs to be replaced with something else.

Hmm, both 3rd and 4th option do look appealing, with 4th one it could get some ability additionally to provide some more utility and 3rd option removes cancer that doctrine spewed. I'll sleep on it and vote later.

Voted for option 3.

Would also help if it had to be build from HQ instead of called in to prevent situations like: "haha, your T-70 overextended, let me instantly call-in this counter".

1- I like Lagos idea.

2- I voted 3

3- As @Doomlord says, this doesn't fix "Panic Puma".

I would rather see 221 back and make the transformation into 222 fuel/mp based instead of munition.
222 Removes the little AI it has now and increases armor/light AT performance. Increase HP to 400.

Goal is a counter to AA HT/T70 mostly cause AEC/Stuart AI is kinda meh

Imo there are number of step that should be taken:

1) Puma build-able from T0 (same solution with 250, Panzer J).
Reasons:
It is a doctrinal unit and should be available regardless of building choice. The reason for not being a call-in is simply that instant production of a counter to all light is a major advantage that should not be available.

2) If the timing of T2 is to early and of T3 too late (although if suggestion one is implemented one could produce the Puma without the T2 building) add a separate "tech" button in T0 taking around 1-2 minutes to research at no cost and add what ever prerequest needed. (or add a small cost similar to AEC but knock off the price a bit since it inferior to OKW one for the same price)

3) Remove Command Panzer from the commander.
Reasons:
The unit has become UP because of the synergy in this particular commander

Suggestions:
Redesign the Commando Panzer changing with 2 fire modes, indirect similar to Stug-E but less range direct similar to the current but Hollow charge round with no AI.

Make the unit either call-in with CP or buildable form T0 with tech requirement.

Change the vet bonuses change and add bonus to aura. Separate aura to 2 one passive 0.90 target and damage reduction as a active timed limited.

Could we add this Battlephase reshuffle to the poll?

https://www.coh2.org/topic/103763/ostheer-tech-restructure

It doesn't change nondoctrinal timings, but lets you put the Puma and StuG/e between T2 and T3 where it belongs.

Third-ed

Could we add this Battlephase reshuffle to the poll?

https://www.coh2.org/topic/103763/ostheer-tech-restructure

It doesn't change nondoctrinal timings, but lets you put the Puma and StuG/e between T2 and T3 where it belongs.

Also this +4