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Sovjet NON-doctrinal healing options

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Mr Carmine
2 Feb 2020, 12:29 PM
#21
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Feb 2020, 12:14 PMZeroZeroNi

Why?? ost has no easy/fast vehicle repair(repair station, crew repair, con repair) options like the sovs do. Also the airborne troops commander provides a forward reinforcement point with aura based healing supply drops. Where the hell is having advantage in one sector being offset by disadvantage in another spear going.


I dont see why thats relevant here. All the stuff you mention is doctrinal.
Sov have the largest squads but have no ai upgrades or nades nond doc for that readon imo.

Ost has panzer smoke healing and even a repair station in docs. Next to their 3 ways of healing ai upgrades and nades non doc. The fact that they repair longer is because theit t4 vehicles have more hp.

Peraonaly i would put an upgrade on the medics at t4 to go up to 6 medics for 250mp. Its not that soviets float mp so it should no be a no brainer that way. Or have the halftrack heal like the ost 251.

Edited my post, some words where missing.
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ZeroZeroNi
2 Feb 2020, 12:35 PM
#22
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Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Feb 2020, 12:29 PMMr Carmine


Ost has panzer smoke healing and even a repair station in docs. Next to their 3 ways of healing ai upgrades and nades non doc. The fact that they repair longer is because theit t4 vehicles have more hp.

No body in their right minds goes T4.


Peraonaly i would put an upgrade on the medics at t4 to go up to 6 medics for 250mp. Its not that soviets float mp so it should no be a no brainer that way. Or have the halftrack heal like the ost 251.

That would not really solve the problem the OP is talking about.
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Sander93
2 Feb 2020, 12:39 PM
#23
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Feb 2020, 11:32 AM|GB| The Lnt.599
btw im sorry but if u let a sovjet have 'above average map presence' while he has to go to base for shitty heals you serious need to improve your play. 3 ladies healing 6 man models on so many squads is so time consuming.

specially when your models drop like flies because as said they are 6 man


Soviets 6 men squads take longer to force off the field because of sheer hitpoints advantage alone.
Against small arms fire Concripts have 440 effective hitpoints, while Grens have only 352. Penals have 480. Panzergrenadiers have 400. A Maxim crew has 384 effective hitpoints while an HMG 42 crew has only 256. Against AOE weapons, when target size doesn't matter, Soviet squads have 480 while most German units have 320-400. Similar losses (losing 2-3 models) mean earlier retreats for German units.

Now of course this is partly compensated by most German infantry dealing more damage per model, but the other way to balance the Soviets' high durability is with slightly worse healing. They can stay on the field longer, but the catch is that they'll also take a bit longer to return. This is deliberate.
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|GB| The Lnt.599
2 Feb 2020, 13:33 PM
#24
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Feb 2020, 12:39 PMSander93


Soviets 6 men squads take longer to force off the field because of sheer hitpoints advantage alone.
Against small arms fire Concripts have 440 effective hitpoints, while Grens have only 352. Penals have 480. Panzergrenadiers have 400. A Maxim crew has 384 effective hitpoints while an HMG 42 crew has only 256. Against AOE weapons, when target size doesn't matter, Soviet squads have 480 while most German units have 320-400. Similar losses (losing 2-3 models) mean earlier retreats for German units.

Now of course this is partly compensated by most German infantry dealing more damage per model, but the other way to balance the Soviets' high durability is with slightly worse healing. They can stay on the field longer, but the catch is that they'll also take a bit longer to return. This is deliberate.


'slightly worse healing' i think that is an understatement. And when its about 'taking a bit longer to return', i feel like not having a frp is sufficient enough to achieve that. How can u justify having a 6 squad (with often no weapon upgrades)and having no decent heal nor frp, while most other factions have (dubble) waepon upgrades, good heal, 5 man squad and frp on top of that. If i am a total new, i would know what to pick.

sure sovjet maybe shouldnt have a frp or the best healing in a game, but there is no reason to justify the shitty base options they have atm. im a ferm believer that the m5 with heal as the 251 would be just the thing to make their heals a bit better without over doing like you seem so afraid of. And if nothing changes people will keep (try) hugging ambos anyway and will be back just as fast.
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ZeroZeroNi
2 Feb 2020, 13:46 PM
#25
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M5 is also a open top HT. Do you wanna compensate for that??? Cus ost infantry are totally taken out of the fight when they are healing. Sure the 251's dps out put is a lot better than the m5, but infantry still would be able to contribute. Also cons have merger you can just keep a con squad in fully healed being able to shoot, come out merge and go back in and heal.
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|GB| The Lnt.599
2 Feb 2020, 14:03 PM
#26
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Feb 2020, 13:46 PMZeroZeroNi
M5 is also a open top HT. Do you wanna compensate for that??? Cus ost infantry are totally taken out of the fight when they are healing. Sure the 251's dps out put is a lot better than the m5, but infantry still would be able to contribute. Also cons have merger you can just keep a con squad in fully healed being able to shoot, come out merge and go back in and heal.


what about out of combat only heal, dont think that should be a problem
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JibberJabberJobber
2 Feb 2020, 14:05 PM
#27
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Feb 2020, 13:46 PMZeroZeroNi
M5 is also a open top HT. Do you wanna compensate for that??? Cus ost infantry are totally taken out of the fight when they are healing. Sure the 251's dps out put is a lot better than the m5, but infantry still would be able to contribute. Also cons have merger you can just keep a con squad in fully healed being able to shoot, come out merge and go back in and heal.


The healing doesn't work while in combat though, the vehicle has to be out of combat for like 10 seconds before the healing activates.
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ZeroZeroNi
2 Feb 2020, 14:08 PM
#28
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Feb 2020, 14:03 PM|GB| The Lnt.599


what about out of combat only heal, dont think that should be a problem

Shouldn't be if that can be done. But removing weaknesses from a faction who already have less weaknesses kinda seems overkill to me. I get your point, in 3v3 and 4v4 where the maps are huge it's a problem. i can't foresee this not being a problem in 1v1/2v2 though.
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|GB| The Lnt.599
2 Feb 2020, 14:24 PM
#29
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Feb 2020, 14:08 PMZeroZeroNi

Shouldn't be if that can be done. But removing weaknesses from a faction who already have less weaknesses kinda seems overkill to me. I get your point, in 3v3 and 4v4 where the maps are huge it's a problem. i can't foresee this not being a problem in 1v1/2v2 though.


well in 1v1 and 2v2 the retreat paths are way shorter already and a frp is not that big of an advantage there. So then its just about the healing speed who comes back on the field first. Which i would say isnt faster then axis heals and then at most it would be the same. Anyway i agree it must not be faster then axis heals. U can only put 2 squads in there, and i am not sure if people would built at ht just for heals and re-enforcement in 1v1 or 2v2. Specially in 1v1 i think.

Also they could give the m5 a slower heal rate then the 251 and let it increase with vet. Because you heal more models at the same speed afterall because the squads size.
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Mr Carmine
2 Feb 2020, 14:30 PM
#30
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jump backJump back to quoted post2 Feb 2020, 13:46 PMZeroZeroNi
M5 is also a open top HT. Do you wanna compensate for that??? Cus ost infantry are totally taken out of the fight when they are healing. Sure the 251's dps out put is a lot better than the m5, but infantry still would be able to contribute. Also cons have merger you can just keep a con squad in fully healed being able to shoot, come out merge and go back in and heal.


make it an expensive upgrade. same as the quad at 100 muni. this also eliminates the open top firing posistions on the m5. and make a slow out of combat heal just like the 251. maybe limit it to 1 squad cuz of merge if its to effective that way.

there m5 plus passangers cant contribute to the fight and soviets dont have to go to base all the time to slowly heal. 1 squad can slowly heal on the front.
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Osinyagov
2 Feb 2020, 15:13 PM
#32
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There was a cool idea from first balance team (Mr. Smith, Miragefla and TheMachine) to give medcrates, like OKS has, to M3 Scout Car. It will make it more usefull on any stage of the battle.
Later this patch was cancelled (iirc it was fall balance preview from 2017), but some stuff from it was introduced later.

alliesalliesNumeral Veterancy Descriptions - Russian Localization Modaxisaxis

alliesalliesThread with UI suggestions for live version of the gameaxisaxis

sovietssovietsThread with adjusted commander portraitsostheerostheer
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Aerohank
2 Feb 2020, 15:21 PM
#33
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Soviets don't have on the field healing options, but they do have Merge. This is enough in my opinion. If healing absolutely must be granted - I would also give medcrates to the Scout Car so it has some use after 5:00.
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T.R. Stormjäger
2 Feb 2020, 15:32 PM
#34
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If they’re gonna make the M3 useful in the mid/late game, I’d rather see it receive camouflage.
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aerafield
2 Feb 2020, 17:47 PM
#35
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Ive said this before but I would give the M5 halftrack the option to drop a medic crate for 15 munitions.. as long as quad flak is not upgraded. Same like the OKW 221 has it
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distrofio
2 Feb 2020, 18:26 PM
#36
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Posts: 2358

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Feb 2020, 11:36 AM|GB| The Lnt.599


:ot: this is about non-doctrinal healing

i agree its usefull though. But thats not what this thread is about #title Kappa

OP take this with calmness but I'm going to ask you, are SU doctrinal heals any good? Are they meta? I understand your point but you might be looking only half of the picture, the game has doctrines and every player must pick 3 of them wisely. Otherwise it's a chosen handicap, not a balance issue

Added. Scout car med creates sounds cool
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Stug life
2 Feb 2020, 18:26 PM
#37
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Posts: 4474

how about an extra medic in base ? that's 1/3 more healing

katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
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Vipper
2 Feb 2020, 18:37 PM
#38
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Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

Maybe test adding 2HP heal for every conscript that has merged to a unit.
:)
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thedarkarmadillo
3 Feb 2020, 10:11 AM
#39
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Posts: 5279

All that's needed is an extra lady at t3/t4 to help make up for the wildly increased damage received. Once things like lmgs stuff are handed out and aoe damage starts seeing the light having to deal with 3 ladies that have to run to each squad and rub them down is a nightmare. If you have 2 squads that need attention you might as well make a sandwich cause they are going to be there all day. Even worse when they get stuck in a squad so you have to micro your units in base just so they can all get healed.
#stalinwept
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T.R. Stormjäger
3 Feb 2020, 10:19 AM
#40
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What if the M3A1 could camouflage once T3 is up and could deliver a med supply crate for 15 muni once T4 is up?
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