im a bit confused, are you talking about 17 pounder or pak 43 ?
AT guns cost 320 mp. Proposed cost for 222 is 200mp. Don't tell me you can't see the difference. AT guns also use twice as much population as 222.
I would rather see its fuel cost reduced instead of mp. 250mp is already cheap compared to other vehicles that hit the field at similar time.
That would be a justified buff, of course as long as it doesn't get its armour increased. Other factions pay around 300mp and at least 50 fuel for their first vehicles immune to rifle fire.
The armor buff is so you need actual AT to fight the 222, not just laugh at it with infantry, forcing eternal repairs.
The mp buff is so it can be bought in pairs without further crippling ostheer mp.
What is the problem?
You never heard of the free LT hitting at the same time, creating a gigantic shock when lt+m20 hits?
Thank free sqauds for artificial overpricing of USF units.
Is it not a problem on its own? 222 comes before 2 out of 3 allied factions can get to an AT gun. It is also much cheaper than AT gun itself. Not to mention that even now double 222 is a valid counter to AEC while costing less than AEC and its research.
I'm pretty sure mobility nerf would be enough for jackson.
On the other hand, this is one of the few proposed changes that are actually worth testing. If jackson would work with such range, that will add new interesting dynamic to the game. It needs to keep its mobility or even get it improved for it to work though.
If they wanted to get around the voiceline restrictions just make the partisan teams mixed male/female. Wouldn't be a big deal to have the male voices if there's a dude on the crew.
I think it shouldn't be considered that important. You can always merge cons into partisans so they get female voices but are all male. And they also start to use polish lines even though they were russian a second ago. So I guess it's just something we have to live with.
The sniper must have been out of cover. The angle was pretty big so its possible game counted it as no cover (flanked). Sniper had 54 hp and got hit by 2 PTRS rounds. Pretty unfortunate, but on the other hand if it lived after staying so close it would be BS as well.
If it's really only those 2 bugs that were mentioned earlier... then I think it's not a big deal nor anything critical.
Animation bug if a Land Matress gets captured... well, not only that partisans capturing a matress will be an extremely rare scenario, but as long as you can still use the matress normally everything is fine.
Same for the voicelines if they captured a team weapon.. there simply are no female voicelines for soviet teamweapons so it makes sense, but it's np IMO cuz u can still use the weapon normally
One could make a separate squad out of female partisan models that would have 3 models. That would be enough stop people from capturing weapons.
Otherwise it could be used as a bigger squad, but also distinct from partisans so that you can block recapture on it. It it's going to be good enough people will take it as a ballancing feature.
So this change is somewhat on me, the 7.5 setup time was being pushed by Relic/Smith so I put forward that with all the offensive bonuses at a halfed set-up time all the drawbacks of the ability start to dissipate.
A hulled down panther with 960 HP on current Hull Down stats would be completely broken, if you could set hull-down in half the time people would actually start seeing how op the stats it gives actually are.
I'd rather not see the ability changed at all but if it's forced down to 7.5 seconds it cant have the offensive buffs it'd just be too OP. If you can constantly be setting up and tearing down hulldown quickly it starts removing the bad elements.
Onlive Hull-Down fits a niche, the only reason it doesn't typically see plays in 1s is that the 3 most viable Ostheer commanders are around pushing early game and countering light vehicles (ostheer's main problem). I've been using it in my 2v2 loadout for a long time as have a lot of other high rank 2v2 people, Festung and Ele Comm in particular can combine CT's damage reduction with all the bonuses from Hull Down, total aids with Panther and Ostwind.
But yeah i'm pushing for it to go untouched because it's actually a sort of well-designed ability, 15 seconds of set-up is a fairer risk-reward than 7.5 seconds if you get all the buffs you do on live. It has over-synergy with Ostwind, Panther and Command Tank
Yeah, this is a good analysis and I can agree with most of it. The only thing I'd like to mention is that if relic would really force the change to set up, which is in my opinion unnecessary, then it should get smaller nerf to compensate than removing all of the offencive bonuses. With all the offencive bonuses removed it is actually a downgrade, even if you could cast it in a second.
Also, if newly buffed panther is the problem, then I would rather see the removal of defencive bonuses. It won't affect the usability of the ability for most units, but it won't make panther OP.
I'd like to see it changed to something that more accurately reflects what hull down was. The target size of the vehicle should be cut to about 1/4 of the vehicles normal target size. It shouldn't get a range or reload boost.
The current ability is a really niche ability. A straight nerf would make it mostly useless.
The problem is that no matter how big the defencive buff is, if the tank won't get the range bonus it won't be able to return fire. A mobile tank can always fight slower TDs by trying to flank or by rushing forwards. Hulled down one can't, so it needs ability to hit them from its hulled down position. Bonus range vahicles like panther, stug, tiger and puma can do that with current buff. The others can't, but at least they can shoot first against incoming tanks or infantry.
One could also argue that RoF and range buffs acutally do make sense in historical context of hull down. German tanks in the game have no stabilisers, so firing from a tank that was mobile a short while ago is very inaccurate and effectively reduces range. What is more, hulled down tank gunner can use the terrain to fire further and more accurately, becouse he can note where shells landed with some specific gun adjustment. That is what artillery did for ages and mobility invalidates all of this. RoF buff can also be seen as less time needed to aim.
Just because it wasn't used too often, it doesnt mean that is not broken. Ostwind gets a 50% cooldown between barrages when hulled down, if thats not broken, i think we have a different concept about what broken things are lol.
Maybe we do. I explained in detail why in my opinion the ability should be left its in current state. Mind that beinig rarely used is not the only argument. What is most important is that while the ability gives strong bonuses it also hits the survivability of vehicles really bad by giving making them immobile. In effect the ability shifts stats of a unit, somewhat like tanks in C&C and StarCraft. They simply get strong bonuses for a hefty price.
With the nerf there will be absolutely no reason to use this ability ever again.
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Relic Entertainment
