Hull down in Spring Ballance Patch

This is the thread to discuss an ostheer hull down ability change from new patch notes. Here is a quote from the notes:

Hull Down
To increase the usability of this ability, the following changes have been made
• Cast time from 15 secs to 7.5 secs
• Offensive bonuses removed (defensive bonuses remain)

To add some context here are the stats of current hull down:

Range: x1.25
Received damage: x0.75
Reload time: x0.8

Now for my own opinion:
I think this change is going to be bad for game ballance. Even though pure stats seem really good, in fact this ability has been like this for over 4 years (sic!) and it wasn't used at all becouse ostheer always had some OP commander that would completely outshadow the others. With last patch, this situation changed and many commanders were used interchangeably. This effected in some forgotten abilities being used and hull down was among them.

So, what is actually the reason why such a good ability has seen so little use so far? This is becouse immobilisation of a hulled down vehicle is a huge nerf on its own. Hulled down tank is easy to hit with artillery, at guns and TDs, as one can tell where it is even without recon. Then all it gets to damage a tank is attack ground. This means, the ability with defencive buffs only, actually will usually bring more harm than good to the owner of hulled down tank.

The offencive buffs are what the ability is really sometimes used for. Range buff allows a great deal of area denial for AI units. Still the modified range hits only 50 for them so they are easily counterable with AT guns or TDs. Hulled down panthers do get over 60 range, but then they do not offer enough DPS to be a threat to actual TDs and AT guns. They also are fast and easy to flank tanks, so they lose a lot by being immobile. The RoF buff of the ability is not enough to really tip the scale and it is less important.

Additional note: Some long range units like elefant or stug seem to be really good on paper with the range and RoF buffs, though becouse they have no turrets, the proper use of the ability with them requires lots of luck and foresight. It is incredibly rare to even see an attempt to do that.

To conclude, the change moves ability from a position of rare gimmick that is slowly gaining some popularity into a place where forgotten and useless abilities cry. It also can potentially greatly reduce doctrinal and strategic diversity of ostheer faction. That is why in my opinion it should never be implemented.

Note to the poll: if you can, please explain your decision.

It's a dumb change. It'll go from a barely used ability to a never used ability.

The ability should give different bonuses to different units.

From another thread:

Show Spoiler

I think if they keep the removal of the offensive bonuses and add some buffs to the defensive versatility of the ability, it will be a great asset.

Perhaps it could promote combined arms play?

Just because it wasn't used too often, it doesnt mean that is not broken. Ostwind gets a 50% cooldown between barrages when hulled down, if thats not broken, i think we have a different concept about what broken things are lol.

Just because it wasn't used too often, it doesnt mean that is not broken. Ostwind gets a 50% cooldown between barrages when hulled down, if thats not broken, i think we have a different concept about what broken things are lol.

While few ppl use it, now noone will use it, so whats the point of keeping it?

Agreed that its OP, but overall commanders with it are unpopular anyway, so better to just replace it completly.

Just because it wasn't used too often, it doesnt mean that is not broken. Ostwind gets a 50% cooldown between barrages when hulled down, if thats not broken, i think we have a different concept about what broken things are lol.

We do indeed, for example I think the G43, su76, and Tiger Ace are broken. Nerfs? only on the 76 and not on its cost or XP requirements. Meanwhile Su85 is getting a sight nerf for some reason. When was the last time someone opened a thread saying Su85 self sight was busted more than TA or the su76?

Just because it wasn't used too often, it doesnt mean that is not broken. Ostwind gets a 50% cooldown between barrages when hulled down, if thats not broken, i think we have a different concept about what broken things are lol.

Maybe we do. I explained in detail why in my opinion the ability should be left its in current state. Mind that beinig rarely used is not the only argument. What is most important is that while the ability gives strong bonuses it also hits the survivability of vehicles really bad by giving making them immobile. In effect the ability shifts stats of a unit, somewhat like tanks in C&C and StarCraft. They simply get strong bonuses for a hefty price.

With the nerf there will be absolutely no reason to use this ability ever again.

While few ppl use it, now noone will use it, so whats the point of keeping it?

Agreed that its OP, but overall commanders with it are unpopular anyway, so better to just replace it completly.

Agreed, lot of EFA commanders are generic and have lot of abilities that dont fit in current metas, compared to the WFA. Most powerful hull down commander I've seen so far in 1v1, 2v2 is the Fortified Armor Doctrine with the Elefant, command P4, Panzer Tactician and recon.

We do indeed, for example I think the G43, su76, and Tiger Ace are broken. Nerfs? only on the 76 and not on its cost or XP requirements. Meanwhile Su85 is getting a sight nerf for some reason. When was the last time someone opened a thread saying Su85 self sight was busted more than TA or the su76?

Like is written on the balance thread, changes are not final, all the things you mention there are being discussed.

Like is written on the balance thread, changes are not final, all the things you mention there are being discussed.

Make 1 mistake on patch notes: ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ NOW WE RIOT ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ NOW WE RIOT ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ NOW WE RIOT ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ NOW WE RIOT ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ NOW WE RIOT ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ NOW WE RIOT ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ NOW WE RIOT ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ NOW WE RIOT ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ NOW WE RIOT ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ NOW WE RIOT ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ NOW WE RIOT ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ NOW WE RIOT ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ NOW WE RIOT ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ NOW WE RIOT ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ NOW WE RIOT ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ NOW WE RIOT ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨ NOW WE RIOT ୧༼ಠ益ಠ༽୨

Like is written on the balance thread, changes are not final, all the things you mention there are being discussed.

You say this in a discussion thread.

What you really mean is that there is no point discussing this if you're not apart of the team making this patch.

You say this in a discussion thread.

What you really mean is that there is no point discussing this if you're not apart of the team making this patch.

No, all the balance threads are being read and are taken in consideration. What I meant, is that most of things you guys are mentioning had been already brought up at some point but are not shown in the patch notes because they have not been discussed 100% yet or they are out of scope.

Feels like the Wehrmacht boys are lighting up the molotov cocktails over this already lol.

Anyhow, I think it's a stupid change for maybe not a completely useless ability but one that's certainly underused, and is especially not really useful for stuff like the StuG and Elefant that can't turn because of their fixed gun nature while stuff like the Panther, Panzer IV and even Tiger would benefit more so like someone else suggested, maybe have 2 versions of the hull down that affect Turreted and fixed gun tanks in different ways so it's more balanced instead of having the same stats for all of the hull down vehicles because like I said, some will benefit more than others.

hull down was never used because it turn the tank completely immobile and vulnerable to td.

The one unit that's useful with hulldown is the panther since it boost its range to 60, but that's way too niche.

Voted buff ability... I think the balance need means to buff it with the reduced cast time and tried to balance it out by removing offensive abilities but reduced cast definitely isn't worth it. Either way - I think a buffed Hull Down would at least open some some commanders for consideration of use.

I'd like to see it changed to something that more accurately reflects what hull down was. The target size of the vehicle should be cut to about 1/4 of the vehicles normal target size. It shouldn't get a range or reload boost.

The current ability is a really niche ability. A straight nerf would make it mostly useless.

I'd like to see it changed to something that more accurately reflects what hull down was. The target size of the vehicle should be cut to about 1/4 of the vehicles normal target size. It shouldn't get a range or reload boost.

The current ability is a really niche ability. A straight nerf would make it mostly useless.

I second this as well. Given the dps and penetration on tank destroyer, the only way to protect yourself is to not get hit.

the bonus should be.

-50% incom accuracy
-25% incom damage
+ 60 armor value. (panzer 4 with +25% armor is not noticeable)

It would have to have a tear down time (like kv-2 perhaps) but that would be more than reasonable if the ability itself was strong

I'd like to see it changed to something that more accurately reflects what hull down was. The target size of the vehicle should be cut to about 1/4 of the vehicles normal target size. It shouldn't get a range or reload boost.

The current ability is a really niche ability. A straight nerf would make it mostly useless.

The problem is that no matter how big the defencive buff is, if the tank won't get the range bonus it won't be able to return fire. A mobile tank can always fight slower TDs by trying to flank or by rushing forwards. Hulled down one can't, so it needs ability to hit them from its hulled down position. Bonus range vahicles like panther, stug, tiger and puma can do that with current buff. The others can't, but at least they can shoot first against incoming tanks or infantry.

One could also argue that RoF and range buffs acutally do make sense in historical context of hull down. German tanks in the game have no stabilisers, so firing from a tank that was mobile a short while ago is very inaccurate and effectively reduces range. What is more, hulled down tank gunner can use the terrain to fire further and more accurately, becouse he can note where shells landed with some specific gun adjustment. That is what artillery did for ages and mobility invalidates all of this. RoF buff can also be seen as less time needed to aim.

So this change is somewhat on me, the 7.5 setup time was being pushed by Relic/Smith so I put forward that with all the offensive bonuses at a halfed set-up time all the drawbacks of the ability start to dissipate.

A hulled down panther with 960 HP on current Hull Down stats would be completely broken, if you could set hull-down in half the time people would actually start seeing how op the stats it gives actually are.

I'd rather not see the ability changed at all but if it's forced down to 7.5 seconds it cant have the offensive buffs it'd just be too OP. If you can constantly be setting up and tearing down hulldown quickly it starts removing the bad elements.

Onlive Hull-Down fits a niche, the only reason it doesn't typically see plays in 1s is that the 3 most viable Ostheer commanders are around pushing early game and countering light vehicles (ostheer's main problem). I've been using it in my 2v2 loadout for a long time as have a lot of other high rank 2v2 people, Festung and Ele Comm in particular can combine CT's damage reduction with all the bonuses from Hull Down, total aids with Panther and Ostwind.

But yeah i'm pushing for it to go untouched because it's actually a sort of well-designed ability, 15 seconds of set-up is a fairer risk-reward than 7.5 seconds if you get all the buffs you do on live. It has over-synergy with Ostwind, Panther and Command Tank