Profile of elchino7

Interesting unit to complain about. Pass.

Even if T1 had some sort of AT\MG even in this case overall correct penal design is bad. Penals are suppose to be stronger mainline inf replacement in their correct desing, but expensive squads are not working early on, because your mapcontrol would be non-existant. Even if T1 build speed\unit production speed would have been lower, this 300MP is just too much to handle.

Penals as unit, is very strong in early game mopping the floor with any other mainline inf, so their cost is justified, because they do and act like a 300MP unit. Point is being this concept is not working.

My idea is, rather then going into a long path of remaking tier unit roster, penals overall power should be a bit streched out from "all strate of the bat" to "from early to mid to late", this will allow them to played as their design intend - mainline inf replacement and become cheaper allowing you to at least be close to 1:1 ratio in terms of units on the field.

You are still missing the point.

No one bothers getting T1 when at least one of the 3 units inside is not broken.
If you suddenly cut the cost by 30mp, that doesn't upset the 160mp cost in tech to deploy at the beginning of the game nor the 60mp difference between starting unit value + initial mp Soviet has compared to Axis or any other allied faction.

If you make them "weaker rifles with less scaling and utility", it would be the same scenario we had with OKW vs USF a couple of month/years ago.


The limit factor is not just the unit cost. Penals also have less synergy with snipers (Conscripts with sandbag + AT nade with hoorah protect them better).
A single PTRS Penals is not gonna cover the whole map and is way easier to circunvent than an AT gun. Going for 2 of them, means that your sole AI till you manage to put out T3 is possible your CE + a single Penal.


You can make plenty of suggestions regarding Penals, people will keep playing Conscripts into T2. Specially when you fail to grasp why they are not been used against OH.

And you want much stronger squad which arrives later and sacrificing early game map countrol, while giving nothing in return in mid game.

Penals are too strong for early game to cost less. I would rather see them weaker early and be cheaper while being stronger in mid\late game. At least T1 would be more reliable and penals more affordable.

They aren't when you have to put 160mp into tech to get them out.

Which is why, while similar, they are not equivalent to PF. PF design does a much better job overall. Both in utility, smooth scaling, AI and AT. It doesn't mean stronger, but it doesn't feel bad using or facing them.

There's also the fact that getting PF doesn't mean you lock out of getting access to an MG and an AT gun.

If Penals are "problematic" it's only because the tier is composed of them plus a sniper and a clowncar unit.

snip

The changes are almost fine for teamgames but you just killed the faction on 1v1.

-The Katyusha vet 1 is actually bugged (IIRC) so you need to either fix it first or actually discard the ability all together.
-The net +30 initial mp is offset by the double mp nerfs. Either you get 3/4 Conscripts which is a net -10mp nerf (and messing on all other stats values cause now they get a discrepancy between cost and reinforce/vet value) or any tiered opening which requires a 2nd CE which the cost increase also upsets.
Unless you plan to adjust the mp cost of both T1 and T2 to be equal to OH, so you get +80mp, the so called buff is not more than a plain nerf.
-The 200mp CE nerf could be fine if you give it an equivalent buff on utility and DPS as Pios received. Cause i don't think they are as good as RET (been able to equip weapons + vet) or Pios at that cost.
I think you could give them reinforce cost of 40% which would put them at 20mp per model (equal to Cons) if you were to apply that change.


The other changes are fine, but i would nerf the T70 a bit more and make all T3 comes way sooner. Adjust the mp economy on tech and upgrades and push any necessary difference towards T4.

Serious question:
How come? Penals and sniper openings have been the meta for what feels like ages until Conscripts got their 7-man buff. And at least in the early game, not much has changed on the Axis side. Volks got a mini nerf, Sturmpios a very small combat buff. Grenadiers got a vet3 buff but that does not affect the early game.
PGrens come earlier now, that's probably the biggest new thing in Axis early game, plus Panzerfusiliere are now (compared to 2-3 years ago) viable although we do not see them in every game anyway.
Throughout all those mini changes, Soviets have been a quite competitive faction, regardless if they were using Penals or Cons. And judging by tournament games we had since the 7-men buff, Penal builds are less abundant but still played and also still competitive. So it's at least not as a clear case as you make it out to be.

I'd rather argue that Conscripts have become so cost efficient especially in the late game that they just beat Penal build. Especially considering that T1 builds need to back tech at some point while T2 build do not.

You are looking at things in isolation, without considering what each openings achieves/tries to do and the meta around that let them shine or not.

1- Penals vs Cons. They achieve completely opposite effects.
One relies in pure brute strength early on which fells short as the game goes on. You sacrifice map control in favour of finding isolated targets to force retreats and then trying to snowball from that position.
Cons are the opposite. You get map control, you can stall with sandbags and are more efficient in the late game, specially as snare units. You get the added benefit of merging early on flamers. As you mentioned, you also save money and time in T2 as that's your natural tech progression.

2- Penals strats are not ideal against OH, specially in the current meta which absolutely demolishes as it punishes SU early mid even harder.
OKW has historically been the main use of Penal based strats, and less people play them.

3- Penals based strats require the faction to rely on "hero" units to carry later on. Either mass T70 based strats or late game units like IS2/KV2. When OH consistently gets to put pressure delaying T70 or accessing T3, and OKW doesn't feel the need to go mechanized "all in" with P2/Puma, more in favour of BHQ with Flak/fast transitioning to PIV, the strat is less effective.

4- Sniper strat is awful against OH meta and high risk, mid reward against OKW. Clowncar strats have generally been only great against OKW and everyone has a pocket PF just in case to counter it. Sniper was only meta during GC2, with OH been mostly Mobile defense. We didn't see snipers during heavy meta.

At this point i think i need to disclaim that this is mostly on 1v1. Sniper can still be used on 2v2.


It's not that T1 openings have become useless or non existent (such as maxim spam), it's just that it has become even more niche or become a "pocket" strats that only works in specific situations compared to bread n butter Cons + T2.