There is no way, no how, that Cons can ever be made to completely counter LMG Grens, nor should they, except in micro situations involving good positioning, and against which is offset, specifically, the LMGs internal setup timer.
Yes there is, make ppsh non-doctrinal. You just removed most of the LMG problems by giving the counterpart a weapon upgrade that lets them have a fighting chance at the range that is the most important and doesn't let LMG grens gain free vet while MP draining the soviets early game.
As other have indicated, its not LMG that is the problem, nor Penal stats.
My perspecrive, is that it is that it is that immediate, every game start, 120MP deficit for Sov on building T1, as compared to Ost T1. If you go early T1 for Penals, you are left "hanging", due to the MP cost offset that Ost can laterally address with a)cheaper T1 b) his first 60 munis.
Penals are, clearly, meant to be the Sov answer to LMG Gren spam. That they xurrently arenot, is a result of the T0T1 artificial split.
Yes, we get it, you have a hard-on for penals, despite never actually playing as soviets nor using them. But claiming that their stats aren't a problem just shows how badly you understand the game. With their current stats they have no chance whatsoever at competing with LMG grens in terms of manpower efficiency early game. They vet slower, they die faster per model, they have less focused fire, they have less utility, they take longer to build. Being slightly cheaper to reinforce by merging and not requiring munitions to get high DPS numbers do not help you out early game, especially as soviets have no munition upgrades to get as it is.
Even if you could build them straight out of T0, you'd still lose to gren spam except maybe on maps with super cut-offs like Langres where you could just rush penals to the cutoff and sit there without having to fear facing several LMGs or a flameht. On any larger map without clear cutoffs the german player would just avoid fighting the penals 1vs1 while outcapping the soviet with his cheaper squads until he got LMGs (or a flameht or even a scout car+lmgs if that's his fancy) at which point the grens win easily manpower wise.
As a side note, if you wanted to claim that penals were obviously meant as the grenadier counter (ie. penals should be made every single game), why on earth does T2 even exist? Is it meant as a punishment for soviet players who don't have a large enough fuel advantage to be able to rely on vehicles for AT? |
T70s could use a small speed/mobility nerf (its a tank not a race car) but the meta that gets them out at 9 mins in as much at fault too, if not more so
And the german meta that gets a piv out at 10 minutes is ok? BTW. T70 is only 3% faster than a t34, how much slower do you want a unit that only has its speed for defense to go?
Munition costs are voluntary for soviets (abilities) and mandatory for ostheer (upgrades). Thats a flawed balance that contributes to soviets having an easier time managing munitions
Soviets have no upgrades to get. They can't improve their unit performance in combat even if they wanted to. LMGs are not required, halftrack flamethrowers are not required, scout car upgun is not required, G43s are not required, tank MGs are not required. But they are huge increases in their respective unit's dps so it makes sense to spend munitions on them. What do soviets get? Penal flamethrowers kill off their long range dps, leaving them as a really mushy short range combatant. Quadmount lets m5 attack air and increases range but overall dps remains pretty much exactly the same. DPs are a super gimpy version of the LMG42, even if you got 3 instead of 2 they still wouldn't be as good as a single LMG42, so you only get them for button.
Worse the cost of a 120mm precision strike, which will instantly kill a squad or support weapon is only 45 munitions... as much as a frag grenade. Difference is frag grenades you see coming, and they dont launch from halfway across the map. GG
I think the 120mm is a very problematic unit in its current state and should not have gotten precision strike as it makes it completely overshadow the base soviet mortar. But hitting with a precision strike requires your opponent to be standing still for >20 seconds, or for you to predict accurately where a unit will be at that time. Try having more map awareness if you are having so much problems with precision strikes, because when you know your opponent has them (and you really should know when those mortars hit vet1 as you'll even see the level up animation on the hit that gets them that level) you really should be able to dodge them most of the time.
Demo charges require no upgrades, not even the minesweeper one for 30muns, and at 90mun will kill any squad/squads in the game outright. they probably tear up vehicles but I dont see people using them against that. Good bye vet3 PGREN squad 25 mins into a close game because you tried to capture a VP. Ostheer naturally cant build them for some reason
As we all know, demolition charge spam is a major problem in the current gameplay. I mean I've seen a player other than myself make them like once every....50 games? Personally I see absolutely no problem in letting ostheer build them as well, but hardly consider it a major issue. Also they're really bad against vehicles because the damage tapers out pretty fast and is not that high to begin with (satchel damage is higher for half the muni) |
Add button and you have a very very lame/no skill ability that wrecks all German armor.
Mark Target 80 munitions, available on 2 commanders
Button 40 munitions, requires a bad 60 munition weapon upgrade
Countered by abilities such as:
Panzer Tactician Smoke, 15 munitions, available on 4 commanders
So lame. |
at least you have something to scale up tiny little bit
Well my point is that giving conscripts a weapon upgrade much weaker and more limiting than the LMG42, that many high level players already choose to not get on guards because it's way overpriced for performance, is a bad idea especially as the guard version gives an ability that the conscript version obviously wouldn't.
Of course if you're saying DPs should be buffed along with being made available to conscripts, then I could see it working. But it would basically make both of the basic infantry units play much the same and would mesh horribly with the ppsh upgrades. |
I think give the cons a single or twin DP-28 upgrade for 30~60 munition after player build T1 or T2 is also a option
DPs are awful weapons. You'd need 3 of them in a squad to match one single LMG42, and even then they'd be obviously far worse because they'd need 3 models standing still all the time and would not tend to focus on the same target. |
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Could we please have a hold fire button on all units, and not just ones that have a camouflage upgrade? Pretty please? |
the stats certainly dont reflect roles, but i do think cost certainly needs to be a factor when considering buffs. a cheaper scout car being equal to the armored car just doesnt seem balanced, especially considering it can be built much sooner. i guess well just have to wait and see how the vet changes affect the meta first.
I consider being turreted a huge advantage for the role these two units are supposed to play. The extremely rare times that I bother making an M3 these days (seeing how they're obsolete so fast and T1 in general is rather lackluster) I often find myself wishing that the thing didn't have any guns at all so it would stop turning when I don't want it to.
Scout car currently has extremely good vet bonuses compared to M3 as well as a very good munition upgrade option. To be honest in the current balance the scout car could be given a cost increase and it would still be the more enticing of the two options, especially after the first 4 minutes of the game after which you generally never ever want to build an M3.
But well, if changes have already been more or less decided I'll just wait and see rather than lament the current situation. |
So, question, LMGs got a small nerf, right.
Is anyone really feeling it?
People seem to be complaining just the same.
Past medium range dps took a hit. Ie. the range that nobody honestly cares about especially as the only unit with better long range dps than even a no-lmg grenadier squad for soviets is penals that cost 50% more.
Short and mid range remain pretty much exactly the same as prepatch (short range might even be a bit higher, can't recall exact numbers). |
Its often understated that Ost also has to buy Battlephase to gain access to RNade, Faust and LMG. The fact that that is a forced purchase, because you cant tier without it, is also understated, and is a crucial factor of asymmetric design. A Sov player can choose not to purchase ATNade or Molotov, or both. An Ost player is categorically forced to buy Battlephase 1, no matter what.
You have access to faust always (with Grenadiers, Osttruppen require T1 building). You have access to LMG always. You need battle phase to get access to Rifle nades.
I'm pretty sure you are the only person in the world who thinks it's somehow unfair for germans to have to get the battle phase upgrade (200/25) to get access to rnades while soviets have molotovs as an optional upgrade(120/25) that doesn't help them gain access to any new units. |
Ok, tell you what. Show me a replay that proves your point as it was presented earlier (ie: both as vanilla, and obviously on equal footing), and I will not post on Coh2.org for a week. If you cant, you dont post on Coh2.org for a week. Bet?
Also, why on earth are you walking up to Grens with Penals?!
Again, I cant understand how you can say, with a straight face, that you are actually walking up to Grens with Penals?!
(Tip: If you actually looked at the stats I posted, you would see that Penals have twice the DPS of Grens at ALL RANGES)
Can't really do that, because I don't generally save replays unless I consider them a good game and any game where I make penals or the opponent makes penals tends to be over in 10 minutes. In a crushing defeat for whichever side had the brainfart idea of making them.
I guess if I actually see someone make them today I'll save it. But really can't promise anything because on average I see a penal battalion maybe once in 25 games unless I build them myself and I don't really want to build them and thus lose games just to prove a point. Even if your offer is very enticing.
I'm walking up with penals because I need to cap points. Points I would probably have had control of if I hadn't wasted 200+360 manpower in bringing penals to the field. |
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