No, the PIV should still win that engagement. Thats where you are wrong. The T34 is not an armor counter, except for Ram. It is an AT support/disabler option with AI capabilities.
PIV should beat a T34 in almost all incidents, unless the T34 is supported and Rams.
Its not a factor of cost, its a factor of the roles of these respective units within the internalmsystem of the factions unit rosters.
The T34 can categorically net benefit with supported Ram, which is the balance equializer and return for cheaper cost.
That is one expensive self propelled ram... Point is it is comparable in price to the p4 but has next to no AT at all, other then that stupid ram ability which is like spending 95 fuel and 360 manpower and throwing it out the window for a free kill. The t34 is terrible no matter how you loook at and a waste of resources that you could be spending on a proper tank like the su85. Congrats, little bitch whiners like you got it nerfed into uselessness, and I am sure the sui 85 is next. Soon your goal will be realized and the soviets will have no answer to german armor.
Oh I am sure the t70 is on the chopping block also, because you guys are bitching about that too. Every decent tank we have you fools are complaining OP, even though the german tanks are all better at the same roles... LOL it boggles my mind why the devs even pay attention to the german whiners anymore. You guys did the same thing to the brits in coh1, what was a great faction turned into the bastard step child faction by coh1s end. It was such a terrible faction nobody played it anymore. Soviets are next. |
T-34/76 lacks everything, in-terms of armor,penetrating by a 37mm gun at front is unacceptable......yes, a proper AT ability will make it useful again, and I personally against nerfing the anti-infantry capability, for PZIV won't do any worse in a AI role
T-34/85 now comes at package of 2, which you should pay 720/260(!!!) for call-in, T-34/85 now is okey, but 110 penetration makes it always loss to a cheaper PZIV.......
T-34/85 needs a penetration rise from 110(!!!) to 140~150 (which inferior than a Tiger&Panther tank)
and again, I think restricting the "Ram" ability and give T-34 series tanks proper performance is the first step to Tank meta
T34 was a great tank but the germans cried OP OP and it got nerfed into the ground and it is now a useless unit that should just be taken out of the game because it has no real purpose. It is terrible at everything. It is a super expensive self propelled ram, thats it. They will be doing the same thing to the su 85 next because of all the cries about OP and then we will have absolutly NO counter to the german armor, which is exactly the goal of all the whiners. Congrats. |
I'll rephrase Mjsegaline. What is your most played game type (1v1/2v2/3v3/4v4)?
The thing what you seem to be missing is T34s are NOT required you could easily get away with just Snipers / Maxims / Scripts (HTD) for AI. In fact if you just wanted AI you should just simply build a T70, push the enemy off the map and follow up with a SU-85 whilst delaying with mines etc.
I play 1v1, have yet to dabble in 2v2 which is my fav, I want to get really good first. But if u made a t70, u wont be making a su85 anytime soon thats one of my points. If u buiild t3, you basically fuicked yourself. T3 nobody really builds because its so easily countered by p4s and then makes the soviet player fucked in the long run struggling to be able to afford the t4 building and then the units |
The point being that T4 is not a linearly higher level of tech than T3 in the same way that German T4 is higher than German T3. And not meaning to sound crass but a panther v supported by panther ivs will be against several SU-85s.
I'd like to see a little SU-85 tweaking (mainly vision range, acceleration and things like that rather than damage, so that it needs more support). Not loads.
I feel you man, but what you guys are missing is that soviets can not afford support! Like you said we are forced to choose, t3 or t4. There is no infantry support tanks for t4, and if we have su85s, we chose t4.
Which means we are forced to have only infantry support, which german infantry and p4s easily destroy. |
Mjsegaline, answer honestly but what is your most commonly played game type?
Well honestly I love mortars and maxims, but I am generally forced to go scout car flamer because within the first few mins all the resources are completely locked down by MG42s and MG bunkers and really it's the only way to counter that so early in the game, otherwise you are screwed because you will be out resourced quickly. If the game makes it further I completely skip t3, because the units are useless against anything other then infantry. Would be nice to have them as support for my su85, but can't afford both the buildings and then the units.
So basically I am forced to go t4 and su85 for the oncoming german armor onslaught. Which I am able to usually stave off for a short while with the su85 until the panther gets on the field, in which case I start losing resources and its eventual game over. |
So I played a few games yesterday as Ostheer and almost 80% of the players on auto utilised some maxim spam strategy. They simply A-move it everywhere and if it gets into a house there is nothing you can do about it. Most annoying strategy ever and the matchup comes down to whether the flamer halftrack can decrew all the AT guns and maxims or will the AT gun 2-shot the halftrack... This is 10x worse than Brits as they just a-move their invincible maxims everywhere. Even clown cars are a breeze compared to this, they are so fragile and easy to go down. Maxims on the other hand is impossible to flank and almost never go down except to flamer halftrack.
While I managed to win most of the games, they were the most long boring games I've ever had in coh1 and coh2. Forget clown cars, Relic please nerf maxim spam into the ground thanks.
Ya, because MG42 and machine gun bunker spams is not even more difficult to handle when all the resources on the map are completely locked down by Mgs and MG bunkers. Then you guys wonder why we are forced to break out the clown car and flamer.... |
Last time i checked the T1/2 & T3/4 have the same costing. It's simply the opportunity cost of not having the other building you must consider.
T2 units cost on average more then t1, t4 units cost more on average then t3. But generally yes, soviets will never have all 4 buildings out at once. They choose either t1 or t2, t3 or t4. But soviets only build t3 if there is virtually no armor on the field, because any armor on the field makes u lose if u chose t3. So basically everyone skips t3 all together, because the second a p4 rolls out it's game over for any t3 units.
Which in itself speaks to the poor balance. Germans can afford to have all their units in play, Soviets only have enough fuel and manpower to choose one or the other without seriously sacrificing in the long run. |
Mjsegaline - Take a minute to think.
Firstly read my damn post before you respond, I was kiting MY SU-85 I'm not stupid enough to rush ONE SU-85 with FOUR tanks and lose them.
Secondly the Panther is NOT a Hard Counter to the SU-85.
The SU-85 is faster from the getgo, has only 0.2 less Maximum speed meaning it can backpedal from a Panther (Out of range of return fire) until the Panther is dead or gives up and which point it can chase.
SU-85 Range 60 Vs Panther 50.
Health Pool of 960 on the Panther means it is 4 Shottable by a SU-85.
If you think the SU-85 is balanced regardless of other balance problems (T3 Russian etc) then this is a pointless conversation as you can't see the blatant obvious.
Oh just for reference, Panther costs 50 Fuel & 120 Manpower more than the SU-85. So technically it should win - It won't if the Russian has half a brain cell.
Last I checked the maps are not made up of straight narrow corridors. Backpedaling is fine and dandy if u have the room and foresight at the given moment to pull it off. If the su85 doesnt have room to backpedal, or gets flanked, or suprised its game over for the su85. And su85 has less penetration verse a panther and less armor. The panther wins in a 1v1 engagment. The only defense is to be able to kite it, which is not easy in most situations.
You are also forgetting that a p4 can seriously damage an su85 so if the panther is supported by the cheaper p4s, which it usually is, its game over for the su85. In contrast, the t34 wont even scratch the armor of a panther even several of them. It's balanced. |
Soviet T0 (conscripts/engis)->T1 or 2->T3 or 4
German T0->T1->T2->T3->T4
I.e. Soviet 'T4' is a community shorthand for a particular teching direction for the Soviets and not actually a higher level of tech than Soviet 'T3' or, in fact, German T3. German T4 is actually a higher level of tech since you have to upgrade T3 en route.
You must have missed the fact that as the soviet tech goes up so does its costs and so do the power of the units... |
Mjsegaline - Do calm yourself down we're talking balance, I've not stolen your Sandvich or anything.
Do you think I haven't used the SU-85 myself and don't know how ridicolously effective it is? I once kited (As in pressed u Repeatedly) whilst pressing S to halt the SU-85 before every shot a total of four PIV's which I killed two whilst reversing and then proceeded too chase down the other two as he simply could not see my unit to shoot it.
Having a unit that can counter German Tanks is fine! Remember the Panther did get nerfed last balance patch. The tool must have a cost associated to itself that is actually fair, and for christ sake no long range unit should scout for itself it's just silly.
I am calm, it is just pretty annoying that any unit that is moderatly effective within the soviet arsenal german players bitch about, even though german units on average are a lot better in almost every aspect. The su-85 is a tank hunter, it is designed for killing tanks like the p4, if you are getting kited by it that extreme, then you are doing something wrong. It is slow, no rotating gun, and is flanked easier then slapping your grandma. Not to mention having even one panther on the field is an instant hard counter, learn to play. |
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