Russians get the greatest AT & ARTY gun out of T1?

agree with OP

arty ability needs go away on zis. and then make su-76 cost 45 ammo for it's arty.

Shreks own su-85's all day

One Maxim stop infinite screcks squad

Not surprised.

What game mode do you play?

Fine Crells, make it so the SU-85 cannot provide it's own line of sight. Or at the very least make it a glass cannon with no armour but very high damage / penetration (Like it is now minus armour).

You do realize that the su-85 is the only russian tank that is effective against tanks right? The t-34 does nothing to a p4 (even though they are of the same tech class) and gets two or three shotted. Nerfing the su-85 would effectivly take away our only anti-tank tank. Not to mention a panther totally out classes an su-85 1v1, so what the hell are you even talking about? Your mad because it kills ur p4? Well it should because its a t4 unit! Our t3 unit is fucking useless against ur t3. We actually have to tech up just to fight ur t3, And your t4 is better then the su-85.

You fucking german fags are just going to keep bitching OP until the soviets are nerfed so bad into the ground they are barly a faction.

To put this into persepctive for you, your argument would be like me saying "nerf the panther because it is too good verse my t34!" In fact that is exactly what you are saying in regards to the su-85, which is a whole tech above the p4. I know you are not complainging about the su-85's effectivness verse your t4 panther, because the panther laughs at the su85 all day.

Imo it is just bad design to have it provide its own max range line of sight. Except the Elefant with spotting scope (limited to stationary, costs ammo and STILL bad design) no other unit gets to do that.

If it were a timed ability that cost munitions it wouldn't be a problem. But long range units providing their own line of sight up to their max range runs completely contrary to the combined arms design in other aspects of the game.
AT guns don't provide their own massive line oft sight either.

They should just change the SU-85 focused sight and the spotting scope upgrade. This would make engagements that involve SU-85s and Elefants much more dynamic so people would actually have to send a few units forward to scout instead of just having them sit next to the long range unit doing nothing.

@MJ, you really don't understand the Soviet tier/tech system, do you?

@MJ, you really don't understand the Soviet tier/tech system, do you?

Really? Care to explain? T-34 is the strongest tank in soviet t3, P4 is the strongest tank in German t3. P4 will win every fight hands down with almost full health. su85 is the soviet t4 tank, panther is the german t4 tank, panther will win every fight 1v1 against an su85, care to explain what I missed?

Mjsegaline - Do calm yourself down we're talking balance, I've not stolen your Sandvich or anything.

Do you think I haven't used the SU-85 myself and don't know how ridicolously effective it is? I once kited (As in pressed u Repeatedly) whilst pressing S to halt the SU-85 before every shot a total of four PIV's which I killed two whilst reversing and then proceeded too chase down the other two as he simply could not see my unit to shoot it.

Having a unit that can counter German Tanks is fine! Remember the Panther did get nerfed last balance patch. The tool must have a cost associated to itself that is actually fair, and for christ sake no long range unit should scout for itself it's just silly.

Mjsegaline - Do calm yourself down we're talking balance, I've not stolen your Sandvich or anything.

Do you think I haven't used the SU-85 myself and don't know how ridicolously effective it is? I once kited (As in pressed u Repeatedly) whilst pressing S to halt the SU-85 before every shot a total of four PIV's which I killed two whilst reversing and then proceeded too chase down the other two as he simply could not see my unit to shoot it.

Having a unit that can counter German Tanks is fine! Remember the Panther did get nerfed last balance patch. The tool must have a cost associated to itself that is actually fair, and for christ sake no long range unit should scout for itself it's just silly.

I am calm, it is just pretty annoying that any unit that is moderatly effective within the soviet arsenal german players bitch about, even though german units on average are a lot better in almost every aspect. The su-85 is a tank hunter, it is designed for killing tanks like the p4, if you are getting kited by it that extreme, then you are doing something wrong. It is slow, no rotating gun, and is flanked easier then slapping your grandma. Not to mention having even one panther on the field is an instant hard counter, learn to play.

Soviet T0 (conscripts/engis)->T1 or 2->T3 or 4
German T0->T1->T2->T3->T4

I.e. Soviet 'T4' is a community shorthand for a particular teching direction for the Soviets and not actually a higher level of tech than Soviet 'T3' or, in fact, German T3. German T4 is actually a higher level of tech since you have to upgrade T3 en route.

Mjsegaline - Take a minute to think.

Firstly read my damn post before you respond, I was kiting MY SU-85 I'm not stupid enough to rush ONE SU-85 with FOUR tanks and lose them.

Secondly the Panther is NOT a Hard Counter to the SU-85.

The SU-85 is faster from the getgo, has only 0.2 less Maximum speed meaning it can backpedal from a Panther (Out of range of return fire) until the Panther is dead or gives up and which point it can chase.

SU-85 Range 60 Vs Panther 50.

Health Pool of 960 on the Panther means it is 4 Shottable by a SU-85.

If you think the SU-85 is balanced regardless of other balance problems (T3 Russian etc) then this is a pointless conversation as you can't see the blatant obvious.

Oh just for reference, Panther costs 50 Fuel & 120 Manpower more than the SU-85. So technically it should win - It won't if the Russian has half a brain cell.

Soviet T0 (conscripts/engis)->T1 or 2->T3 or 4
German T0->T1->T2->T3->T4

I.e. Soviet 'T4' is a community shorthand for a particular teching direction for the Soviets and not actually a higher level of tech than Soviet 'T3' or, in fact, German T3. German T4 is actually a higher level of tech since you have to upgrade T3 en route.

You must have missed the fact that as the soviet tech goes up so does its costs and so do the power of the units...

Last time i checked the T1/2 & T3/4 have the same costing. It's simply the opportunity cost of not having the other building you must consider.

Mjsegaline - Take a minute to think.

Firstly read my damn post before you respond, I was kiting MY SU-85 I'm not stupid enough to rush ONE SU-85 with FOUR tanks and lose them.

Secondly the Panther is NOT a Hard Counter to the SU-85.

The SU-85 is faster from the getgo, has only 0.2 less Maximum speed meaning it can backpedal from a Panther (Out of range of return fire) until the Panther is dead or gives up and which point it can chase.

SU-85 Range 60 Vs Panther 50.

Health Pool of 960 on the Panther means it is 4 Shottable by a SU-85.

If you think the SU-85 is balanced regardless of other balance problems (T3 Russian etc) then this is a pointless conversation as you can't see the blatant obvious.

Oh just for reference, Panther costs 50 Fuel & 120 Manpower more than the SU-85. So technically it should win - It won't if the Russian has half a brain cell.

Last I checked the maps are not made up of straight narrow corridors. Backpedaling is fine and dandy if u have the room and foresight at the given moment to pull it off. If the su85 doesnt have room to backpedal, or gets flanked, or suprised its game over for the su85. And su85 has less penetration verse a panther and less armor. The panther wins in a 1v1 engagment. The only defense is to be able to kite it, which is not easy in most situations.

You are also forgetting that a p4 can seriously damage an su85 so if the panther is supported by the cheaper p4s, which it usually is, its game over for the su85. In contrast, the t34 wont even scratch the armor of a panther even several of them. It's balanced.

Last time i checked the T1/2 & T3/4 have the same costing. It's simply the opportunity cost of not having the other building you must consider.

T2 units cost on average more then t1, t4 units cost more on average then t3. But generally yes, soviets will never have all 4 buildings out at once. They choose either t1 or t2, t3 or t4. But soviets only build t3 if there is virtually no armor on the field, because any armor on the field makes u lose if u chose t3. So basically everyone skips t3 all together, because the second a p4 rolls out it's game over for any t3 units.

Which in itself speaks to the poor balance. Germans can afford to have all their units in play, Soviets only have enough fuel and manpower to choose one or the other without seriously sacrificing in the long run.

Mjsegaline, answer honestly but what is your most commonly played game type?

Ignoring mjsegaline from now on.

The point being that T4 is not a linearly higher level of tech than T3 in the same way that German T4 is higher than German T3. And not meaning to sound crass but a panther v supported by panther ivs will be against several SU-85s.

I'd like to see a little SU-85 tweaking (mainly vision range, acceleration and things like that rather than damage, so that it needs more support). Not loads.

Just a quick note, you can build Three SU-85s for nearly the same cost of two Panthers. Guess which ones would win without a single loss. Of course the panthers...not!

Mjsegaline, answer honestly but what is your most commonly played game type?

Well honestly I love mortars and maxims, but I am generally forced to go scout car flamer because within the first few mins all the resources are completely locked down by MG42s and MG bunkers and really it's the only way to counter that so early in the game, otherwise you are screwed because you will be out resourced quickly. If the game makes it further I completely skip t3, because the units are useless against anything other then infantry. Would be nice to have them as support for my su85, but can't afford both the buildings and then the units.

So basically I am forced to go t4 and su85 for the oncoming german armor onslaught. Which I am able to usually stave off for a short while with the su85 until the panther gets on the field, in which case I start losing resources and its eventual game over.