Russians get the greatest AT & ARTY gun out of T1?

The point being that T4 is not a linearly higher level of tech than T3 in the same way that German T4 is higher than German T3. And not meaning to sound crass but a panther v supported by panther ivs will be against several SU-85s.

I'd like to see a little SU-85 tweaking (mainly vision range, acceleration and things like that rather than damage, so that it needs more support). Not loads.

I feel you man, but what you guys are missing is that soviets can not afford support! Like you said we are forced to choose, t3 or t4. There is no infantry support tanks for t4, and if we have su85s, we chose t4.

Which means we are forced to have only infantry support, which german infantry and p4s easily destroy.

I'll rephrase Mjsegaline. What is your most played game type (1v1/2v2/3v3/4v4)?

The thing what you seem to be missing is T34s are NOT required you could easily get away with just Snipers / Maxims / Scripts (HTD) for AI. In fact if you just wanted AI you should just simply build a T70, push the enemy off the map and follow up with a SU-85 whilst delaying with mines etc.

I'll rephrase Mjsegaline. What is your most played game type (1v1/2v2/3v3/4v4)?

The thing what you seem to be missing is T34s are NOT required you could easily get away with just Snipers / Maxims / Scripts (HTD) for AI. In fact if you just wanted AI you should just simply build a T70, push the enemy off the map and follow up with a SU-85 whilst delaying with mines etc.

I play 1v1, have yet to dabble in 2v2 which is my fav, I want to get really good first. But if u made a t70, u wont be making a su85 anytime soon thats one of my points. If u buiild t3, you basically fuicked yourself. T3 nobody really builds because its so easily countered by p4s and then makes the soviet player fucked in the long run struggling to be able to afford the t4 building and then the units

Again though, it is possible to use for example T2/3 and Ram any PIVs that enroach into your territory supporting with Zis. There is no "Need" for T3 to be built for the purposes of AI, Soviets have more than enough AI. Be glad you have so many AT options at your disposal.

- Cheap Mines
- At Nades
- Guards
- T34
- Zis
- SU-85s

Any mix of these will deal with Axis armour if used correctly.

I highly recommend playing a few games of 2v2 and you will see the stupidly powerful SU-85 in action.

I play 1v1, have yet to dabble in 2v2 which is my fav, I want to get really good first. But if u made a t70, u wont be making a su85 anytime soon thats one of my points. If u buiild t3, you basically fuicked yourself. T3 nobody really builds because its so easily countered by p4s and then makes the soviet player fucked in the long run struggling to be able to afford the t4 building and then the units

I disagree...I think T3 is vital as a Soviet.

My typical build order 3 Conscripts, Maxim, Maxim/Mortar, Guards/Shocks, T70, ZiS, SU-85. I typically skip T1, but will build it and go clown car if I notice heavy MG play. If I'm successful with it, I can usually skip T2 and back-tech if needed.

When my T70 hits the field, there probably aren't any hard counters on the field (maybe schreks but they can be avoided), so I should take a resource advantage at this point. I think this part of the game is key for Soviets to capitalize on. This is when you push the German infantry back, take their fuel, and get aggressive with your MGs. If you go straight to T4, you're forfeiting this opportunity and just asking to be beaten by the superior German armor.

While I'm waiting for the fuel to build T4 and get the SU-85, I dip back into my T2 building and use the surplus manpower to get ZiS as an insurance policy. At a minimum, I should be able to slow down the PIV with AT Nades. Best case, I can finish it off with the ZiS before my SU-85 even hits the field.

As for the SU-85 itself, yeah...it's range might be a little OP. Considering where it and the Pak are meant to engage from, I don't think the Pak is supposed to counter it. Fausts, flanking schrek'd PGrens, and flanking PIVs are the way to go. Don't just drive your PIV straight down the center of the map and get pissed when the SU-85 wrecks it...scout then flank.

I'm not sure if you guys are playing a different game to me, but how the hell do you flank a SU-85 without the enemy noticing on the huge maps we have. Does your PIV have a cloaking shield or something? Does the enemy forget to use their conscripts, maybe forgetting their mines too? Remembering the enemy can have 1 : 1 Ratio of SU-85 : PIV even if you flank one with 2 PIV's the OTHER SU-85 will kill both your PIV's. You cannot effectively beat SU-85s with PIV's.

I feel like this needs to go into every thread on here.

The instant you say "our" or "your" when referring to factions, you have lost every shred of credibility when it comes to balance discussions. Play both to get an equal feeling for how they play out, or be quiet.

Also, the howitzer mode is retarded imo. Bring back muni based AP shells and presto, you have an ATG that can engage tigers and panthers. Problems solved!

I feel like this needs to go into every thread on here.

The instant you say "our" or "your" when referring to factions, you have lost every shred of credibility when it comes to balance discussions. Play both to get an equal feeling for how they play out, or be quiet.

Oh really? I know for a fact Hissy has more games played as Russians than Germans.

The problem with the SU-85 is not its power. It is its cost. Right now, the SU-85 costs less manpower and fuel than a PIV, and it is vastly stronger than a PIV (circling it is hard, because the SU-85 has a very big sight radius, especially once vetted and using its vet ability).

If you increase its cost to be between a Panzer IV and a Panther, then the Soviet army will actually hurt, if it loses an SU-85.

The ZiS barrage ability is not OP, itself. The problem is also resource-centric. Since the Soviet army doesn't need to spend than many munitions to be effective, the ZiS barrage ability costing 45 munitions is not really a restriction to their gameplay. If oorah and other abilities were a little more expensive or less effective, then the Soviet army would be starved a little closer to the German army, and they wouldn't be able to use some abilities as liberally as they do now.

A Soviet player can literally neglect munitions points in the early game, and they will not suffer much of a setback compared to what the Germans will suffer if scout flamers arrive, and there are little munitions for fausts.

I'm not sure if you guys are playing a different game to me, but how the hell do you flank a SU-85 without the enemy noticing on the huge maps we have. Does your PIV have a cloaking shield or something? Does the enemy forget to use their conscripts, maybe forgetting their mines too? Remembering the enemy can have 1 : 1 Ratio of SU-85 : PIV even if you flank one with 2 PIV's the OTHER SU-85 will kill both your PIV's. You cannot effectively beat SU-85s with PIV's.

It's called true sight and attacking from different angles. P4s can effectively kill Su-85s with the right micro. Charging head-on and engaging in a slugfest with 85 is just poor lazy tactics that deserve to lose.

P4s also have anti-infantry utility, superior mobility and more efficient killing power while moving. It's already the most cost effective tank in the game.

Also, smoke.

Replays Marxist, against good to decent players. I'm hearing alot of noise about how easy it is to kill a SU-85 with a PIV and not many replays showing it.

If you increase its cost to be between a Panzer IV and a Panther, then the Soviet army will actually hurt, if it loses an SU-85.

P4s are already spammable and actually work consistently against infantry. That's a terrible idea.

The ZiS barrage ability is not OP, itself. The problem is also resource-centric. Since the Soviet army doesn't need to spend than many munitions to be effective, the ZiS barrage ability costing 45 munitions is not really a restriction to their gameplay. If oorah and other abilities were a little more expensive or less effective, then the Soviet army would be starved a little closer to the German army, and they wouldn't be able to use some abilities as liberally as they do now.

Barrage is 60 munitions, which alot early game and quite expensive for something that is easy enough to dodge. There are much better arty options that don't cost nearly as much.

A Soviet player can literally neglect munitions points in the early game, and they will not suffer much of a setback compared to what the Germans will suffer if scout flamers arrive, and there are little munitions for fausts.

Oh ok, I missed the part where flamers, DPs, at nades, mollys and mines are free. Faust cost is fine for what it brings. The Soviets would happily spend munitions on things like shreks/flamesniperHT/bunkers if they had the equivalent -- which they don't.

Again though, it is possible to use for example T2/3 and Ram any PIVs that enroach into your territory supporting with Zis. There is no "Need" for T3 to be built for the purposes of AI, Soviets have more than enough AI. Be glad you have so many AT options at your disposal.

- Cheap Mines
- At Nades
- Guards
- T34
- Zis
- SU-85s

Any mix of these will deal with Axis armour if used correctly.

I highly recommend playing a few games of 2v2 and you will see the stupidly powerful SU-85 in action.

THIS!

The problem with the SU-85 is not its power. It is its cost. Right now, the SU-85 costs less manpower and fuel than a PIV, and it is vastly stronger than a PIV (circling it is hard, because the SU-85 has a very big sight radius, especially once vetted and using its vet ability).

If you increase its cost to be between a Panzer IV and a Panther, then the Soviet army will actually hurt, if it loses an SU-85.

The ZiS barrage ability is not OP, itself. The problem is also resource-centric. Since the Soviet army doesn't need to spend than many munitions to be effective, the ZiS barrage ability costing 45 munitions is not really a restriction to their gameplay. If oorah and other abilities were a little more expensive or less effective, then the Soviet army would be starved a little closer to the German army, and they wouldn't be able to use some abilities as liberally as they do now.

A Soviet player can literally neglect munitions points in the early game, and they will not suffer much of a setback compared to what the Germans will suffer if scout flamers arrive, and there are little munitions for fausts.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Really people are now bitching about the SU-85 as well now. i swear the German players love to moan.

The only point i agree with is the cone vision proving sigh up to it's max range. my solution make it the vet 1 ability or attach a muni cost/decent timer as previously suggested.

Counters for the SU-85 in a vacum are: shrek, PAK(the 85's shitty AI makes it loose vs a PAK) P4 which is vet 1 with smoke, panther with vet 1. PAK43. They can be counters and it comes down to how well you plan an attack, PLEASE remember it is an assault gun, it can be circle strafed, and if you faust it, the turn rate is also slowed down making it literally a sitting duck.

End of the day the SU 85 is the ONLY AT weapon that can reliably hurt panthers and up, the ONLY one soviets have. The damage must stay the same. the range must stay the same.

The only times I really had a problem with SU85's is on Minsk Pocket, which is an atrocious map with the most terrible design - narrow corridors are a death trap. On open maps though, it's really not that difficult to flank an SU85 with a couple of P4s at most

The map is the issue, not the unit

Oh really? I know for a fact Hissy has more games played as Russians than Germans.

Yes, really. While it might not always be an indicator of playing mostly one side, at that point you're getting emotional about it and it becomes tainted with "us" vs "them". None of that has any place in a rational balance discussion.

Shreks melt 85s. Which the soviets have no equivalent.

If you're charging head-on into 85 you just have terrible micro. Learn to flank something with no turret. Or try smoke.

Oh the learn to play quip.... How do you flank something that out reverses any possible thing the other side can throw at it. The only way you can flank a competent su 85 user is to catch it off guard, unless you have vet on your tanks and use blitz the su 85 can reverse snipe you into oblivion. By the way that reminds me. thats what needs to nerfed on su 85. It should not be a speed demon in reverse. That is the main reason it hard to flank, and ultimately kill.

Really people are now bitching about the SU-85 as well now. i swear the German players love to moan.

The only point i agree with is the cone vision proving sigh up to it's max range. my solution make it the vet 1 ability or attach a muni cost/decent timer as previously suggested.

Counters for the SU-85 in a vacum are: shrek, PAK(the 85's shitty AI makes it loose vs a PAK) P4 which is vet 1 with smoke, panther with vet 1. PAK43. They can be counters and it comes down to how well you plan an attack, PLEASE remember it is an assault gun, it can be circle strafed, and if you faust it, the turn rate is also slowed down making it literally a sitting duck.

End of the day the SU 85 is the ONLY AT weapon that can reliably hurt panthers and up, the ONLY one soviets have. The damage must stay the same. the range must stay the same.

The problem is they are so cheap and can deal one on one with a panther that cost almost double. And they are insanely fast in reverse and will shoot with near perfect accuracy driving backwards. They don't need a turret when they can just speed reverse and turn toward target and rarely miss. After the p4 speed nerf it impossible to circle it with less than 2 p4s unless you have the blitz ability. The one tank that can deal with it costs twice as much and will lose most of its health fighting one. Unless that panther was early its very likely by the time it comes out there will be more than one su 85. And 2 su 85s will eat everything short of an elefant for breakfast

Yes, really. While it might not always be an indicator of playing mostly one side, at that point you're getting emotional about it and it becomes tainted with "us" vs "them". None of that has any place in a rational balance discussion.

Agreed 100%, discussion needs to be based on facts, not personal issues

Yes well said Dmeets, please Shazz - Facts.