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Thread: SU-85; The Thread2 Aug 2013, 08:33 AM Jump back to quoted post2 Aug 2013, 08:26 AMCrells Well considering how slowly conscripts kill other infantry i see his point but do not condone the saracasm Conscripts are quite useful all round units imo, at nades, molotovs, ppsh's with htd(still decent even after patch), merge.. They kill infantry quick enough? Anyways we are getting way In: COH2 Balance
Thread: SU-85; The Thread2 Aug 2013, 08:22 AM Jump back to quoted post1 Aug 2013, 17:36 PMSwiftwin Jump back to quoted post1 Aug 2013, 05:53 AMNullist Stugs are not proving effective enough vs SU85s, imo. Conscripts are not proving effecting enough vs Ostwinds. FIX IT RELIC!@!~!!!! Oh yeah mister sarcastic, because conscripts are dedicated AT and their main purpose is to kill tanks? The stug is a tank destroyer just like the su85. Wait why am I even taking the time of replying to this guy... In: COH2 Balance
Thread: SU-85; The Thread2 Aug 2013, 08:03 AM Also this: Jump back to quoted post1 Aug 2013, 09:12 AMCrells Maybe the power of the Su-85 is to compensate for a lack of anything else tank wise. Germans can get multipull diffrent types of tanks, a stug(if it was not quite as bad) and a P4 where as the SU 85 is the only "tank" in t4 and as such should be very very good at what it does? Just my thoughts as to why. Then they should have put in the SU-100 instead and made it cost the same as a panther. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SU-100 The current SU85 would give a more reasonable cost vs reward if it costs the same as a panther. I am actually against increasing its cost, in favour of rather buffing the t34 and decreasing the su85's range, reverse speed and infantry sniping capabilities, or otherwise increasing the stug's range/LOS. The SU-85 was actually similiar to (worse armor wise, similiar damage wise, a bit worse range wise) than the stug IRL. The current in game SU85 is more like the SU100 than the real SU85. Maybe then just make it more expensive and call it the SU100, but it is too good for its current cost and encourages extreme camping play by russians. On chokey maps this is exponentially worse. The lack of other viable "tanks" (note SU85 and stug are td's not tanks) in the soviet arsenal is not an excuse for SU85 being op. Then they have to give the soviets a better T34 that can stand up a little better to p4's or one that is up-gunneable to 85mm. The current T34 is most useful for ramming which was an extreme rarity on the eastern front. The T34 was not as good as a p4, but it certainly wasnt a battering ram. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: SU-85; The Thread2 Aug 2013, 07:59 AM I feel this is relevant so I'm re-posting this here. Its about SU-85's sniping pgrens. Jump back to quoted post1 Aug 2013, 05:21 AMMaydream U know what? Let's make a test. Just bring the squad of grens close to su and get it to at least a light cover. Post the replay so we could all see how much time it will take for the su to destroy those grens. Even more, we could do the same with pgrens and just see what happens. Fair enough? All right sir, Challenge accepted. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B35rkBbK6-w [game played by peter (one of the devs) after the patch.] Specifically look at 23:40 to 23:50. The german pushes out of his base with a huge blob, leading with schrek'd pgrens. What happens is this: Just to clarify so you don't ask... the conscripts shoot at the pgrens for a little while at first before retreating, but the amount they contributed is very small and has no effect on the point I am trying to illustrate. First shot of SU-85 kills one squad member of the pgren squad. Second shot does nothing Third shot takes out two more pgren squad members, bringing it down to one man with a slither of hp left, after which the last member is killed by antoher su85 shot.(the camera moves away, but you can see it dying cos it dissapears from the UI, and nothing else was shooting at them at that time. The shocks only arrive after they are dead.) Bear in mind that this happened at long range. The SU-85 is even more accurate at sniping at closer ranges (i.e. the range the schreks have to be to shoot it). (I know the german guy blobbed but this has no effect on proving my point since the SU85 was shooting at the pgrens which were in front.) Now if this doesn't show to you in the most clearest of ways that su85's do snipe pgrens, I don't know what will. My point is they shouldn't be so damn effective at killing their own hard counter. Now, all that being said I do have some good news. I tried out using stugs vs su85's last night and got some success. The lag between issuing orders and units responding has been greatly improved. I find stugs used with panzer tactition somewhat effective at keeping su85's at bay. Stugs should still have longer range, but it has been a step in the right direction to make them slightly harder to hit at least(smaller target size) The su85's low scatter does negate this somewhat though so I dont think the problem is at all "solved" yet. Using the stugs takes more micro than it takes to micro the SU-85 cos of its superior range, so I still feel the complaints about the SU-85 have good grounds. It's damage is fine. Its ability to snipe pgrens and paks is pure bullshit. Its reverse speed is too damn high. If they fix the reverse and sniping problems then they have done a lot already. I dont see why in the world it should out range a stug It wasnt like that IRL. SU85's insane range makes it very hard on a map like pripiyat cos of the limited flanking avenues(trees on side protect it). Doctrinal counters pak 43 and elefant, are well.. doctrinal and too late. Enough said. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: July 30th Patch2 Aug 2013, 07:33 AM Jump back to quoted post2 Aug 2013, 06:37 AMLeiwoUnion I don't understand this SU-85 sniping infantry issue. I never see it happen to any great extent. I'd say the same amount as m10 sniped infantry in CoH; amount that is noticeable, and a nice bonus, but doesn't affect the game in the big picture. How often do you play ostheer? One tends to not notice the enemy soldiers dying but if it's your own guys you tend to care a bit more. Was watching cataclaw play last night and it happened again, and it happens in my games very frequently. I think it will be a fairly simple fix. They can just increase the su85's accuracy/scatter to be the same as the other dedicated AT units in the game. Will only be fair. I mean stugs also sometimes take out a couple of sqaud members in one shot but this is really rare. It's also less of an issue to russians cos of 6 man squads and merging. If a stug is lucky enough to take out two conscripts there are still 4 left to throw the baseball at-nade. When an SU-85 snipes 2 pgrens its gg-retreat with your tail between your legs. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: July 30th Patch1 Aug 2013, 11:32 AM Jump back to quoted post31 Jul 2013, 18:39 PMCon! Right because waiting for tier 4 and having a t-70 or t34 come out and kill all your inf clearly is worth it. On paper your statements may make sense but in the game they don't bear out to be true. T3 is still plenty viable for germans. P4 just isn't as good vs. inf... just like su-85 only it is still better. so_1337_it_hurts was referring to russian T3 not being cost effective, not German T3. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: The Problem with the Pak - A video for Relic1 Aug 2013, 11:27 AM The Su85 should be on the top of their priority list. I think we have submitted enough evidence for it. Can't understand why people think it is balanced. The paks(and Zis) should also be right up there on the list as this example shows. If that was a T70/su85 or any tank the pak would have been mince a lot quicker. The corner of the bridge part seems to have obstructed their line of fire, but shouldnt have. Not sure if this has to do with target priority because of the barraging su76.. In: COH2 Bugs
Thread: The Problem with the Pak - A video for Relic1 Aug 2013, 11:23 AM I lol'd hard at this. That Pak crew must have thought since they are vet 2 they can get high on the job. In: COH2 Bugs
Thread: July 30th Patch1 Aug 2013, 09:16 AM Jump back to quoted post1 Aug 2013, 09:12 AMCrells Maybe the power of the Su-85 is to compensate for a lack of anything else tank wise. Germans can get multipull diffrent types of tanks, a stug(if it was not quite as bad) and a P4 where as the SU 85 is the only "tank" in t4 and as such should be very very good at what it does? Just my thoughts as to why. Then they should have put in the SU-100 instead and made it cost the same as a panther. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SU-100 The SU-85 was actually similiar to (worse armor wise, similiar damage wise, a bit worse range wise) than the stug IRL. The current in game SU85 is more like the SU100 than the real SU85. Maybe then just make it more expensive and call it the SU100, but it is too good for its current cost. The lack of other viable "tanks" (note SU85 and stug are td's not tanks) in the soviet arsenal is not an excuse for SU85 being op. Then they have to give the soviets a better T34 that can stand up a little better to p4's or one that is up-gunneable to 85mm. The current T34 is most useful for ramming which was an extreme rarity on the eastern front. The T34 was not as good as a p4, but it certainly wasnt a battering ram. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: July 30th Patch1 Aug 2013, 08:58 AM Jump back to quoted post31 Jul 2013, 17:51 PMpqumsieh I still feel T3 is extremely viable even if your opponent goes T4 and pushes out SU-85's. That said, I typically rely on PAK's to push my opponent's armor back. An Ostwind and a few Grens backed by a Pak or two can be a very valid thread to a T4 Soviet player. Just my personal opinion of course, others are welcomed to disagree. I use the same, ostwind and grens, but i have been trying using stugs instead of paks since the pak isn't and shouldn't be a "pushing unit" imho. The pak also doesn't work too well if there are mortars and the su85 will usually win a pak. Why was the decision taken to make the su85 out range the stug? I mean it was the opposite historically? I understand that the SU85 is more expensive and should be 'better', but its damage is already more than the stug if i'm not mistaken? The stug target size decrease did help a little though. In: COH2 Balance