July 30th Patch

People need to quit bitching about the Su85. Yes, it's a bit OP, but its not the end of the world. Stop throwing tanks at it hoping for a different outcome. That's the definition of insanity. The Su85 isn't an all-world beater. It's utterly hopeless against infantry, so if you see your opponent spamming Su85's, starting building shrecked Pgrens and AT guns.

I still feel T3 is extremely viable even if your opponent goes T4 and pushes out SU-85's. That said, I typically rely on PAK's to push my opponent's armor back. An Ostwind and a few Grens backed by a Pak or two can be a very valid thread to a T4 Soviet player.

Just my personal opinion of course, others are welcomed to disagree.

A smart suggestion made earlier (forgot who) about how to fix the P4 if the Dev's wont revert the scatter nerf: Buff the MG upgrade across all tanks. And don't just give it the placebo effect of "increased suppression" (which is so weak it's not useful). It needs to kill. Give it either a big accuracy boost, a rate of fire increase, or DMG increase, or some mix of the three. It's the smartest solution. It would help with the Stug as well.

The German meta is heavy T1/T2 mix, skip T3 entirely, hold out for T4. Right now, the SU-85 makes the entire T3 building obsolete. Pre-patch, T3 building was useful only because the P4 could adequately deal with the soviet hoards and, unlike the Ostwind, potentially dispatch an Su85 (potentially). While the P4 is still able to potentially dispatch an Su85 it can't/isn't handling infantry worth a damn.

Anyone doing the risk/reward math sees there's no reason to build T3 building in the current state.

Maybe for you it is, but I love german T3, it's very solid all-around. Just don't rely on it solely to beat the Su85. P4's and Ostwinds handles almost every other Soviet unit quite well. If you see heavy Su85 use, backtech to T2 to get AT guns and Pgrens, and eventually get an elefant or pak43. Ostheer is flexible like that Peter has said before that they are built to be able to back tech easily. Backteching is super cheap for Ostheer, and the building goes up pretty fast too.

If the soviet player is spamming SUs and has strong infantry (vet 3 in late game, PPSH-41, etc.) one or two Paks wont stop them. You can't use the Ostwind because 3 (or more) SUs are in its way, the infantry flanks the Pak and kills it with Molotovs and so it's pointless to attack with Grens.

If the soviet player is spamming SUs and has strong infantry (vet 3 in late game, PPSH-41, etc.) one or two Paks wont stop them. You can't use the Ostwind because 3 (or more) SUs are in its way, the infantry flanks the Pak and kills it with Molotovs and so it's pointless to attack with Grens.

If he has that many strong infantry units and that many Su85's, that means you fucked up and lost the resource war, or lost too many units earlier in the game. Otherwise, you should have your own mass of strong vetted infantry and mix of good units to fight him.

I still feel T3 is extremely viable even if your opponent goes T4 and pushes out SU-85's.

"Even if".... sort of implies Soviets actually utilize a different strategy of fast SU-85 at least some of the time. I know you know this is not the case.

Wishful thinking isn't going to balance or create dynamic gameplay. Bold decisions need to be made with the next balance patch.

I'll say it again: Anyone doing the risk/reward math sees there's no reason to build T3 building in the current state.

i think people have forgotten about combined arms.

"Even if".... sort of implies Soviets actually utilize a different strategy of fast SU-85 at least some of the time. I know you know this is not the case.

Wishful thinking isn't going to balance or create dynamic gameplay. Bold decisions need to be made with the next balance patch.

I'll say it again: Anyone doing the risk/reward math sees there's no reason to build T3 building in the current state.

Right because waiting for tier 4 and having a t-70 or t34 come out and kill all your inf clearly is worth it. On paper your statements may make sense but in the game they don't bear out to be true. T3 is still plenty viable for germans. P4 just isn't as good vs. inf... just like su-85 only it is still better.

i think people have forgotten about combined arms.

Bingo. T4 on both sides only have very specialized units. Anybody that spams any unit from T4 is just asking to get clobbered by combined arms.

yeah the tank mg buff was my suggestion, I think it would be a brilliant tweak to help tank vs. infantry combat

Double nerfing units is always a terrible idea. They should've kept the cost the same and introduced the other change. IDD Blitz Trucks were too effective but now you have a vehicle that's so vulnerable that it's questionable that you even get them. Seriously, what game do you play where any unit can sit somewhere for 16 minutes and not be harassed or killed? A single Conscript squad with an AT nade is guaranteed death for an Opel, if somebody wants to counter them it's very easy to do so. Increasing the MP cost as well as reducing effectiveness makes it a bad move.

I still feel T3 is extremely viable even if your opponent goes T4 and pushes out SU-85's. That said, I typically rely on PAK's to push my opponent's armor back. An Ostwind and a few Grens backed by a Pak or two can be a very valid thread to a T4 Soviet player.

Just my personal opinion of course, others are welcomed to disagree.

So long as a SU-85 reverses faster than any tank can drive forward, it's broken. It's bad enough that's it's capable of duking it out with a PAK straight up, but it doesn't even need to fear flanks because it can reverse so quickly.

If the soviet player is spamming SUs and has strong infantry (vet 3 in late game, PPSH-41, etc.) one or two Paks wont stop them. You can't use the Ostwind because 3 (or more) SUs are in its way, the infantry flanks the Pak and kills it with Molotovs and so it's pointless to attack with Grens.

So wait, in this scenario your opponent has hoards of strong infantry AND multiple T4 TD's, and you have some PAK's and an Ostwind. The game was lost by you way before the SU-85's came out.

yeah the tank mg buff was my suggestion, I think it would be a brilliant tweak to help tank vs. infantry combat

The last thing we need is for all Ost tanks to be effective vs infantry. So I'd definitely vote no to that.

buff t-34 buff t-34

Look at what Hissy said above..

Clearly you haven't played much ostheer. The Su85 will snipe pgrens. Im not saying it always happens, but 3/4 times I cant kill the su85 cos too many of my pgren squad members got sniped. Note this is a lone su85 with a lone pgren approaching it(thus no other support factors). You can also go look at ace's post in the su85 thread to see it's insanely low scatter values for yourself (lower than all other tanks). There were also a number of videos posted in that thread showing how su85 outright wins vs paks.

No reason to get personal, there is general consensus that SU85 needs looking at. By the way, are you the guy who spammed m3 and snipers+guards into su85 on pripiyat? No further comments lol.

No one asked for it to be nerfed to shit. It merely needs a balancing tweak, or the ostheer equivalent(Stug) needs an appropriate tweak. The vanilla t34 also needs a buff so no-one is asking for "only german buffs and russian nerfs" or some bullshit like that. I play Russians too. It also remains to be seen if the target size reduction on the stug will have any real effect on the current meta which always ends up in p4 vs su85.

U know what? Let's make a test. Just bring the squad of grens close to su and get it to at least a light cover. Post the replay so we could all see how much time it will take for the su to destroy those grens. Even more, we could do the same with pgrens and just see what happens. Fair enough?
I'm not the guy spamming snipers, guards and sus. It may sound akward, but i mostly play soviet t3. And that wasn't Pripyat' for sure. It was a map with suburbs or smth.

U know what? Let's make a test. Just bring the squad of grens close to su and get it to at least a light cover. Post the replay so we could all see how much time it will take for the su to destroy those grens. Even more, we could do the same with pgrens and just see what happens. Fair enough?
I'm not the guy spamming snipers, guards and sus. It may sound akward, but i mostly play soviet t3. And that wasn't Pripyat' for sure. It was a map with suburbs or smth.

All right sir, Challenge accepted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B35rkBbK6-w
[game played by peter (one of the devs) after the patch.]
Specifically look at 23:40 to 23:50. The german pushes out of his base with a huge blob, leading with schrek'd pgrens.

What happens is this:

• Just to clarify so you don't ask... the conscripts shoot at the pgrens for a little while at first before retreating, but the amount they contributed is very small and has no effect on the point I am trying to illustrate.
  

• First shot of SU-85 kills one squad member of the pgren squad.
  

• Second shot does nothing
  

• Third shot takes out two more pgren squad members, bringing it down to one man with a slither of hp left, after which the last member is killed by antoher su85 shot.(the camera moves away, but you can see it dying cos it dissapears from the UI, and nothing else was shooting at them at that time. The shocks only arrive after they are dead.)

Bear in mind that this happened at long range. The SU-85 is even more accurate at sniping at closer ranges (i.e. the range the schreks have to be to shoot it).

(I know the german guy blobbed but this has no effect on proving my point since the SU85 was shooting at the pgrens which were in front.)

Now if this doesn't show to you in the most clearest of ways that su85's do snipe pgrens, I don't know what will.

My point is they shouldn't be so damn effective at killing their own hard counter.

Ok sure, you weren't that guy on pripiyat so i'm not mad at you lol I don't remember the game but you must have out played me then. I do often try new freaky builds so it could always have been a scenario like that.

Now, all that being said I do have some good news. I tried out using stugs vs su85's last night and got quite some success. The lag between issuing orders and units responding has been greatly improved. I find stugs used with panzer tactition quite effective at keeping su85's at bay. Stugs should still have longer range, but it has been a step in the right direction to make them harder to hit at least(smaller target size).
Using the stugs takes more micro than it takes to micro the SU-85 though cos of its superior range, so I still feel the complaints about the SU-85 have good grounds. It's damage is fine. Its ability to snipe pgrens and paks is pure bullshit. Its reverse speed is too damn high. If they fix the reverse and sniping problems then they have done a lot already. Its range is debatable but I dont see why in the world it should out range a stug. SU85's insane range makes it very hard on a map like pripiyat cos of the limited flanking avenues(trees on side protect it).

OK, let me clarify a few things based on some of the questions that have popped up.

First, there is accuracy in the game. Accuracy on all tanks is a value between 2.5% and 5%. The actual accuracy value being used in the current hit calculation is determined based on how far your target is from your position. So if your target is at max range, you will use a 2.5% accuracy modifier. If your target is half in between your max and min range, you will use 3.75%.

This accuracy value is then multiplied by 0.5 if you are moving. That value is then multiplied by the target size which leads to your chance to hit.

If a shot hits, nothing will stop it from hitting its target and dealing damage. If your shot misses, then there is still a chance for it to collide into enemy or neutral objects. If this happens, damage is dealt.

Friendly units cannot collide with friendly projectiles. Damage is only dealt to friendly units if the shot hits close enough to splash onto friendly targets.

@Nullist; only the T34-85 was affected by the scatter distance changes.

Thanks a lot for the very informative and cool video and for explaining stuff. Its things like this that makes the fansite awesome and we appreciate your insights and would always love to see more

All right sir, Challenge accepted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B35rkBbK6-w
[game played by peter (one of the devs) after the patch.]
Specifically look at 23:40 to 23:50. The german pushes out of his base with a huge blob, leading with schrek'd pgrens.

What happens is this:

• Just to clarify so you don't ask... the conscripts shoot at the pgrens for a little while at first before retreating, but the amount they contributed is very small and has no effect on the point I am trying to illustrate.
  

• First shot of SU-85 kills one squad member of the pgren squad.
  

• Second shot does nothing
  

• Third shot takes out two more pgren squad members, bringing it down to one man with a slither of hp left, after which the last member is killed by antoher su85 shot.(the camera moves away, but you can see it dying cos it dissapears from the UI, and nothing else was shooting at them at that time. The shocks only arrive after they are dead.)

Bear in mind that this happened at long range. The SU-85 is even more accurate at sniping at closer ranges (i.e. the range the schreks have to be to shoot it).

(I know the german guy blobbed but this has no effect on proving my point since the SU85 was shooting at the pgrens which were in front.)

Now if this doesn't show to you in the most clearest of ways that su85's do snipe pgrens, I don't know what will.

My point is they shouldn't be so damn effective at killing their own hard counter.

Ok sure, you weren't that guy on pripiyat so i'm not mad at you lol I don't remember the game but you must have out played me then. I do often try new freaky builds so it could always have been a scenario like that.

Now, all that being said I do have some good news. I tried out using stugs vs su85's last night and got quite some success. The lag between issuing orders and units responding has been greatly improved. I find stugs used with panzer tactition quite effective at keeping su85's at bay. Stugs should still have longer range, but it has been a step in the right direction to make them harder to hit at least(smaller target size).
Using the stugs takes more micro than it takes to micro the SU-85 though, so I still feel the complaints about the SU-85 have good grounds. It's damage is fine. Its ability to snipe pgrens and paks is pure bullshit. Its reverse speed is too damn high. If they fix the reverse and sniping problems then they have done a lot already. Its range is debatable but I dont see why in the world it should out range a stug.

Mkay. I can see now the ground for your statements. But, imho,these are just two damn lucky critical shots that might happen from time to time (cant remember having this luck myself). I will try to make a special vid for you as i'm now even more interested in carrying out this test myself.

Mkay. I can see now the ground for your statements. But, imho,these are just two damn lucky critical shots that might happen from time to time (cant remember having this luck myself). I will try to make a special vid for you as i'm now even more interested in carrying out this test myself.

I never said It does it 100% of the time. But it does happen often(my guestimate is 70%-80% of the time your schrekked pgrens end up losing to the SU85 due to snipes and having to retreat). Remember there are only 4 squad members, so it only needs to kill two or three to make you lose your shit and retreat it. If you attack an SU85 with a schreck squad the pgrens will be lucky to kill the 85. also, the su85 can just ligtning reverse away and keep on snipin'. As Ace has said countless times, it is the small scatter on the 85 that causes the sniping.

this is also why using snipers guards and su85's was so hard to counter. It remains to be seen if the patch (small stug buff) will have any effect on this.

I still feel T3 is extremely viable even if your opponent goes T4 and pushes out SU-85's. That said, I typically rely on PAK's to push my opponent's armor back. An Ostwind and a few Grens backed by a Pak or two can be a very valid thread to a T4 Soviet player.

Just my personal opinion of course, others are welcomed to disagree.

I use the same, ostwind and grens, but i have been trying using stugs instead of paks since the pak isn't and shouldn't be a "pushing unit" imho. The pak also doesn't work too well if there are mortars and the su85 will usually win a pak. Why was the decision taken to make the su85 out range the stug? I mean it was the opposite historically?

I understand that the SU85 is more expensive and should be 'better', but its damage is already more than the stug if i'm not mistaken? The stug target size decrease did help a little though.