July 30th Patch

Maybe the power of the Su-85 is to compensate for a lack of anything else tank wise. Germans can get multipull diffrent types of tanks, a stug(if it was not quite as bad) and a P4 where as the SU 85 is the only "tank" in t4 and as such should be very very good at what it does?

Just my thoughts as to why.

Maybe the power of the Su-85 is to compensate for a lack of anything else tank wise. Germans can get multipull diffrent types of tanks, a stug(if it was not quite as bad) and a P4 where as the SU 85 is the only "tank" in t4 and as such should be very very good at what it does?

Just my thoughts as to why.

Then they should have put in the SU-100 instead and made it cost the same as a panther.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SU-100

The SU-85 was actually similiar to (worse armor wise, similiar damage wise, a bit worse range wise) than the stug IRL. The current in game SU85 is more like the SU100 than the real SU85. Maybe then just make it more expensive and call it the SU100, but it is too good for its current cost.

The lack of other viable "tanks" (note SU85 and stug are td's not tanks) in the soviet arsenal is not an excuse for SU85 being op. Then they have to give the soviets a better T34 that can stand up a little better to p4's or one that is up-gunneable to 85mm. The current T34 is most useful for ramming which was an extreme rarity on the eastern front. The T34 was not as good as a p4, but it certainly wasnt a battering ram.

Right because waiting for tier 4 and having a t-70 or t34 come out and kill all your inf clearly is worth it. On paper your statements may make sense but in the game they don't bear out to be true. T3 is still plenty viable for germans. P4 just isn't as good vs. inf... just like su-85 only it is still better.

so_1337_it_hurts was referring to russian T3 not being cost effective, not German T3.

Then they should have put in the SU-100 instead and made it cost the same as a panther.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SU-100

The SU-85 was actually similiar to (worse armor wise, similiar damage wise, a bit worse range wise) than the stug IRL. The current in game SU85 is more like the SU100 than the real SU85. Maybe then just make it more expensive and call it the SU100, but it is too good for its current cost.

The lack of other viable "tanks" (note SU85 and stug are td's not tanks) in the soviet arsenal is not an excuse for SU85 being op. Then they have to give the soviets a better T34 that can stand up a little better to p4's or one that is up-gunneable to 85mm. The current T34 is most useful for ramming which was an extreme rarity on the eastern front. The T34 was not as good as a p4, but it certainly wasnt a battering ram.

I agree with your post, i was stated a reasoning not expressing how i think it should be, the only problem i see with nerfing the su but buffing the t34 is the fact that you will -never- have both in a competative 1v1, my suggestion is to slightly nerf the su 85 and move it to t3, that way it still has the same timing but being less effective means a good secound tank would be the t34 (which should get a slight tweak to its cost effectiveness).

Or throw make the teching system alot less dumb, yes i really dislike only being able to use 50% of my units per game)

I agree with your post, i was stated a reasoning not expressing how i think it should be, the only problem i see with nerfing the su but buffing the t34 is the fact that you will -never- have both in a competative 1v1, my suggestion is to slightly nerf the su 85 and move it to t3, that way it still has the same timing but being less effective means a good secound tank would be the t34 (which should get a slight tweak to its cost effectiveness).

Or throw make the teching system alot less dumb, yes i really dislike only being able to use 50% of my units per game)

And make the T-34 T4? Who would build it when you can have powerful AI (T70) and powerful AT (SU-85) in one building? Doesn't seem like a good solution. T34 should have its AT ability buffed somehow (the devs have said on their cast that upgun was not in the plans however...), SU-85 needs a big nerf, and ZiS could use more accuracy, along with the PaK. I'm really sick and tired of having Ostheer's tier 3 and 4 countered by a single unit. SU-85 should definitely lose 1v1 to a panther, what,s the point of building one otherwise?

I would not moe the t34 to t4 no, maybe the t70. but the point remains the same the teching system is screwing with balance.

I also dislike the fact the SU 85 counters all (bar the elephant) but what would soviets do if the panther counters the su 85, the only mobile AT soviets have. if however the panther could kill the su 85 handily and the t34 was in the same building then you would need both tanks to kill off the panther.

At cost, Panther should handle SU85 easily.
That is simple and straight forward.

What really is problematic, is the TD status of SU85.
Its SUPPOSED to beat Tanks. That is well and fine.

BUT

It also owns Ost TDs, PaK and even infantry with AT.

Problem.

Those infantry snipes should never happen. Having to retreat PG's at 2 men to avoid losing shrecks is ridicolous when the SU-85 snipes them so often, at least that's how it seems.

nerf SU85 anti infantry capability and reduce the tanks reverse speed so it can't speed away without any support from conscripts, at guns, or guards!

I don't understand this SU-85 sniping infantry issue. I never see it happen to any great extent. I'd say the same amount as m10 sniped infantry in CoH; amount that is noticeable, and a nice bonus, but doesn't affect the game in the big picture.

I don't understand this SU-85 sniping infantry issue. I never see it happen to any great extent. I'd say the same amount as m10 sniped infantry in CoH; amount that is noticeable, and a nice bonus, but doesn't affect the game in the big picture.

How often do you play ostheer? One tends to not notice the enemy soldiers dying but if it's your own guys you tend to care a bit more. Was watching cataclaw play last night and it happened again, and it happens in my games very frequently.

I think it will be a fairly simple fix. They can just increase the su85's accuracy/scatter to be the same as the other dedicated AT units in the game. Will only be fair. I mean stugs also sometimes take out a couple of sqaud members in one shot but this is really rare. It's also less of an issue to russians cos of 6 man squads and merging.

If a stug is lucky enough to take out two conscripts there are still 4 left to throw the baseball at-nade. When an SU-85 snipes 2 pgrens its gg-retreat with your tail between your legs.

I can not say this happens alot(my own experiance from both sides) but evidence has been shown and whether this is a random vid or a frequent occurance i can not say, all i can say is this should not happen (if it does or not is irrelavant) i like where the SU 85 is right except for the reverse speed is too high (the acceleration not top speed) and this inf sniping.

I feel if those 2 are addressed it would be in a much better position. as the lower acceration would lead ambushes being muuch more effective.

Maybe the Problem is the Splash damage/radius?

Asuming it does splash.

Maybe the Problem is the Splash damage/radius?

Asuming it does splash.

I think its mostly about the scatter, because so many of the SU85's hits occur in a small area. Damage is high aswell, but wouldnt matter if it didnt land right on to of them every time.

I would not moe the t34 to t4 no, maybe the t70. but the point remains the same the teching system is screwing with balance.

I also dislike the fact the SU 85 counters all (bar the elephant) but what would soviets do if the panther counters the su 85, the only mobile AT soviets have. if however the panther could kill the su 85 handily and the t34 was in the same building then you would need both tanks to kill off the panther.

Combined arms or heavy call-in to kill a Panther, just like the Amis did in COH1 where it worked very fine. SU-85 or multiple ZiS + ram, button, mines or AT-nades. Panthers are supposed to be hard to kill, they're late-game, end of the tech tree dedicated AT tanks. They should not lose to SU-85s bar a micro mishap from the German player, because then what's the point of even building a panther? Chew on T-34s even more?

I think it bears repeating, but when a unit single-handedly counters Ostheer's T3 and T4 by itself, there's a big problem. It's not just the speed. It's the accuracy, fire rate, armor, availability; this TD has too much going for it.

Also, I barely noticed the scatter changes save for the Brumbar. That thing is now a sniper that lobs mortar shells, it's awesome. Very much impractical because a T34 can solo it, but awesome nonetheless. Other tanks I've barely seen a difference, IS-2 is still underpowered, T-70 still owns infantry at range, AT guns still miss 3/4 of the time, P4 still beats infantry.

New HtD is balanced. It gives conscripts an edge but doesn't allow them to win all 1v1 engagements even against PGrens.

You know how models in a squad often bunch up? I picked off a model in a Gren squad, the other 3 bunched up and I one-hit the squad with another shell from my SU-85.

Gotta love my tank.

Has anyone trying spamming StuG III /w Spotting Scope to counter it?

I really like the direction for this patch. I hoped for more, but they fixed some VERY important issues. People complaining it was disappointing, I think, are people who thought all bugs and imbalances would get swiftly fixed in a single patch, which is rarely the case.

Check out some of the BIG problems that got fixed:

-Frame Delay Removed. ALL GAMEPLAY is more responsive now. Maybe not perfect, but its a lot better. This was the best change imho, and it is rarely cited.

-German Doctrin Changes: I think overall it was a good move. Riegel mines and G43's arrived too late to make an impact, now the matches will be much more interesting.

-Changes to the Brummbar, IS-2, T70, Ostwind, Tiger and T-34: They were small, and subtle, but they were hints that they are doing baby steps to test small changes so they can brnig in the big ones. The IS-2 is MUCH better against infantry now, the Brummbar rarely misses with a scatter of 1, the T70 is now EXTREMELY accurate, even when it misses.

People still complain that PIV didn't get nerfed. It did, its just as accurate, but its a little worse against infantry now (if it misses, chances are it can miss more). T-34 in contrast, is now even better versus infantry, which should return its investment much more. Same with Tiger.

Blitz trucks and Strafe got nerfed, for great zig.

Guys, we cant ask for much more in a single patch. Next patch we might find some additional changes which even more balance! Excited to say the least.

Maybe i'm just terrible with the Soviets but I feel like they are in a pretty rough spot atm. I still have a problem with strafe pinning me in my base sector and killing my snipers after forcing a retreat. That along with the fact that the soviet early game window of opportunity seems extremely small. If you don't push the Germans off of the fuel early game and they get to t3 its pretty tough to come back from.

I also feel like the heavy snow needs to be removed from the center of pirypat to give the ruskies more flanking routes to deal with bunkers and MG spam.