If I have an AI unit and it DOESNT get more than 30 kills in a match and has a price tag like that...its a waste.
If it touched you in your no no spot and it must be nerfed cool. Make it fire every 30 seconds and do less damage so I can wrack up 50 kills with it...
That 90 second cool down for 100 fuel on a fuel starved faction is punishing. This unit is only cost viable in 3v3 and 4v4 from all the replays of it doing AMAZING that I have seen. ISG can get 30 kills a match. It AGAIN costs 0 fuel.
The walking stuka is hardly some OP monster. If anything I think its UP for 1v1 and 2v2 considering the cost.
It can be useful. CAN. Sure I want to hedge my 100 fuel on a possibility. Ummm on second though...no thanks.
Edit: And for damn near the same cost i can afford TWO T70s when playing Soviets or a single T34/85 call in. And I promise you TWO T70s well microd are going to negate infantry and AT Guns way wayyyy better.
ur concept of artillery is flawed, it is not an AI unit. it is an artillery. lets not simplify this. AI units are not units that are great against infantry, they are incidentally, also direct fire units. direct fire units are going to expose themselves to the battlefield and all its dangers. a t3485 can be great against tanks and infantry, but it can also be negated, contained and prevented from doing too much damage. rakentenwerfer, paks and schrecks, germans have more than enough anti tank weapons.
but the stuka is an artillery, i cannot negate its firepower, i can only brace for it and the best i can do is spread out and take reduced casualties. i would stop all these, if relic is to include isreal anti missile systems to the factions for 450mp and 125 fuel with a 90% chance to shoot down rockets. but no, i can spread out but it wont work. but smart players will not bother, they will not aim at a general area chock full of delicious meatbags. instead, with stuka's ability to squad wipe, they will fire at individual squads and wipe them 1 by 1. so even after proper countermeasures to artillery, stuka just shits on that theory and still wipes squads.
the reason why im so adamant is because sooner or later, people are going to get better, the crying will start all over again when people finally learn to abuse this thing. im all for balance but this is not 1 of them.
sure, if you think an AI unit must have 50 kills before it is useful, we have a problem. most units have barely more than 10 kills, people retreat them before models start dropping. but they cede territory. |
Then wouldnt it be more important and sensible to improve the katyusha and panzerwerfer?
when that happens, the crying will be IMMENSE, on this forums.
2 wrongs dont make a right, it will be arty war all over again. vcoh had it for a nice period when the brits came in. |
I asked for 30+ kills. I saw 26. But I also saw double Oshteer mortars getting about 20 in that time. I also saw 12 for a very short lived 120MM.
Both the Ostheer mortar and the 120MM cost no fuel. Do you think they are OP?
Again this replay is totally unimpressive. Light Arty Barrage as Ost can accomplish this again no fuel cost.
100 Fuel (133 adjusted for inflation) for what was just Mediocre because of good use. Not good. Not Great. Mediocre. I can do better with a Single T70 and its overall more useful imho then a walking Stuka.
30+ kills hurts, 26 hurts too. what i wanted to point out was its effectiveness as compared to its point-click-die play style.
it was unimpressive, it doesnt matter, it doesnt have to be. if it was fun, stuka would be balanced. mortars no longer 1 shot stuff, not much at least. i can retreat to reinforce. you have to kill 12 conscripts for 240mp damage, 12mxaim crews for 240mp damage and 12 guards for 330mp damage and i still wont lose my 75munition investment. that is around 36 over kills. also, the ostmortar had a much longer time frame of usage. instead, the stuka achieve that by killing only 26guys, or 22 discounting lucky rng saving me and in a smaller time frame.
as for 120mm, he blobbed, a single shell took out 4 guys from 3 squads, no squadwipe and he retreated. that is proper anti blob tool. if the stuka did stuff like that, it would be fine. but now it blasts a tiny area with all its munitions and kills everything in it.
mortars priests and katyushas all share this firing pause characteristic, 1 by 1 the shells come and relocating of units is still possible even if you are hit because chances are the 1st shell dont really nail ur forces and its a bloody good indicator to gtfo. but staying long in the area means you are going to get hit sooner or later. stuka? lol, the moment the 1st shell lands,if you are not out of the area 2secs before then, you are going to lose something.
stuka and obers just makes games much harder than it should have been, quick squad wipe strikes that puts a gaping hole in your army, rather than slowly chipping away and bleeding you. skill involved? not much, not with units that you can A move with. or drop no-smoke-1sec-to-land arty on stuff. |
did watch it.
i wont put time stamps here, but rather assign numbers to the barrages.
first barrage (around 10-11 min): instant retreat the moment it was fired. if the okw player actually laid his rockets properly down on the retreat path it would have been way worse. i mentioned this before. autoretreating 3-4 units makes it quite easy for the barrage to hit something. as does a priest firing at the base building after a full retreat...
second: you know theres a stuka on the field. you know when its last barrage was fired. why stick to buildings? especially two so close together.im not saying to abandon all buildings forever, but when barrage is off CD you should be very careful
third: 3 models lost. lucky mortar shell killing the remaining 3 maxim crewmen
fourth: minor losses altough the shocks are right in the center of the barrage
fifth: total miss
sixth: game over. killing some pinned shocks. doesnt really count
so all in all that stuka scored 26 kills (not counting those shocks at the end). 12 of those were the building wipes (which imo were quite avoidable). out of the remaining 14 kills, 1 was an actual squad wipe (the cons insta retreating at the sound of the barage being fired). i really dont see how a 400mp 100fuel 1.5 min cd unit isnt supposed to at least be able to pull something like that off, sorry
1st barrage was the worst, it just demonstrates the power of stuka. instant retreat and cannot be saved. like you said, he didnt even need to aim it properly. the shell lands fast after firing.
a priest firing at the retreat point is not even a fair comparison. a katyusha could also be effective with all that units blobbed up. a stuka would have wiped everything and ended the game there.
2nd, should a single arty unit nullify all buildings? they werent relatively close mind you, they werent even side by side. there was a good distance between each building. should i fight out in the open against all that panzerfusiliers, he would have just A move me to hell. he had placed them nicely to hit both buildigs with most of the shells hitting nothing. only the bare edges landed and demolished the building regardless. also, no other arty piece is capable of nullifying buildings with just 1-2 shells. it still stands and should not be discounted. stuka in semosky is will level everything in the middle. last time i saw a panzerwerfer doing that, they need 2 for that kind of firepower.
6th, whether the game ended or not, a wipe is a wipe. there was no red smoke for this kind of destruction. it was a beautiful end to a fucked up game.
yes, rng did save us, but it works both sides. the stuka is 400mp and 100fuel. already he has dealt 240mp, 330mp+75muni, 240mp. that is a pretty good deal. i was not able to recover from all that damage sustained. in such a short time. could be have been better with his barrages, we would have been left with nothing.
the stuka does not need to target blobs to be effective. it is even effective on individual squads, so fuck those who says its an anti blob tool. it isnt, it nukes the shit out of everything that is the point im trying to bring out. for such a high return and low risk unit, it is in the area of being too effective at what it does.
ISG does more model damage than squad wipes. its much cheaper to reinforce units than buy new squads. |
Yes:
- nerf walking stuka;
- nerf sturmpios;
- etc
And give OKW back its normal fuel income + ability to build caches.
Agree?
I think this is the only solution because to manny people are missing the real picture and the unique feature of this army. This army needs to have UBERunits because this is the only chance it got, as spaming is the only chance Soviets have in early game. This is a verry riscky approach for okw players because EVERY LOST UNIT can cost them the game. Can't you see this?! It's not Soviet or American case! People want to transform OKW into a fuel starved Ostheer. How much flawless do you want your victories against OKW to be?
Isn't enough that playing OKW is the most challenging from all factions?
Isn't enough that they can barely build vehicles?
How would you stop a maxim wall? Or a zis+maxim wall? With infantry, right?! The wurframen is a punishing weapon for blobing (no matter if we are talking about maxim or infantry blobs). There is absolutely no reliable range weapon at the Axis side. Howitzers do shit (german howitzers, russian ones are fine!), Pzwerfers do shit. Ok, is the Axis allowed to have something to work with?
Could you stop whining about how OP OKW units are? They are supposed to be this way. DEAL WITH IT.
i really hate to use this argument, but it seems that it is hard to get it across. people playing at my level, are different from people playing at your level. they are going to be more capable and your general rank 2000 dude who is using okw for the 5th time.
these people are ranked 40-100, easily and know how the okw work, inside and how. they know their strengths and weaknesses and they know how to engage in combat that is different from the usual A+move. i can deal with sturmpios, no problem. i can deal with volks spam, jadgpanzers or jadgtigers, i have my tactics and ways.
but it is things like obersoldaten and walking stukas are pushing it. these units require tanks to counter them and force soviets into a 1 trick pony play style and they just need to guard these units religiously from tanks and they just rape everything in sight. these units do not have soft counters, tactics do not work against these guys, its either overwhelming firepower or you need to retreat.
just plop an obersoldaten in cover screened by schrecked volks, tanks and infantry have problems engaging them. if every combat is a simple A+move like that and the soviet must cede ground for every engagement. the only thing that counter a combination like that is simply overwhelming firepower, the isu152. anything else is just going to take massive casualties.
also, US and soviets do not rake in +500mp, losing squads hurt just as much as it does for okw. last time i checked, soviets and US dont get squad replacements for losing squads, it hurts just as bad. also last time i checked, volks are 240mp while rifles are 280 and conscripts are 240. a squad wipe on any of these squads are going to hurt just as bad.
lastly, like i fucking said, watch the bloody replay and tell me if i blobbed or that stuka is just a surgical strike that wipes squad every 1.5mins. stop fucking assuming that i blobbed. |
Soviets are over performing in 2v2 as well as you can have access to every tier and that hasn't been fixed.
Lets not compromised 1v1 balance due to team games issues.
please elaborate. what do you mean by access to every tier, i really dont get it.
overperforming in what sense?
if you mean crappy conscripts scaling, penals that does not provide any value over conscripts, AT guns being the only real non doctrinal anti tank unit yet have only half the dps of paks, su85 comes late and is clumsy to use while being dedicated AT, t34/76 and 85 has no utility skills and escape mechanism despite being heavily dependent on rear shots. guardsmen are evenly matched by upgraded grenadiers and outmatched by all other elite infantry like obersoldaten and fallsshirmjagers despite a hefty upgrade cost and a premium mp cost.
i have no idea what a maxim has to do here either, someone pulls shit out of their ass and decides to derail the thread i suppose, still some of us gave constructive solutions to his woes. |
@darth, dont edit what i said and put shit in my mouth.
like katioff said, OKW ISG fixes it. sturm pios fixes it. fallshirm spawning from behind them fixes it too.
there's a solid tactic called counter suppress. mg34 can counter suppress it and you can move volks and sturms in. since maxims do nothing when suppressed.
maxims are horrible against buildings, if maxim spam is dominating you, use buildings, he might not have enough conscripts with molotovs to deal with them. a sturmpio in a building is extremely potent, they make close range heavy cover useless with the dps they can put out with and long range rifle shots are going to take a long time.
here, more than enough tactics to deal with them. whether you can execute them, thats another issue.
nope. but a nerf would render it useless in 1v1, while its current state is okay in 2v2. again my opinion
ill watch that replay tomorrow, but again ive seen people dodge my barrages pretty well. also i had situations where it was "spot on" and rarely killed anything. btw there is scatter. the targeting line is way thicker than the actual aoe of the rockets. it also doesnt fill the whole line sometimes. its just relatively accurate compared to kats/werfers
it might be the little fanboy speaking here, but i think youd be pretty pissed if they gave it a circular area and scatter. hitting clustered troops / wpn-teams with a line of rockets isnt that effective since some rockets tend to overshoot and some land infront of the targets. a circle of 6 rockets instantly raining down would be way more deadly imo
its definitely overperforming in 2v2. it was never okay in the 1st place. people who say that they are fine is because they are effective, while im saying they are too effective for something thats a point-click-watch things die unit.
yes, please watch the replay and let me know what i should do, that doesnt deviate too far off my strat.
if they gave it a circular area and scatter, there's a much lesser chance for 2 rockets to land on troops can wipe everything out. also you are assuming i clustered my troops, which is why i need you to watch it and tell me how the hell if any of those squad wipe strikes are a blob.
thank you, if you ever get around to watching it. |
yeah, youre right there. i meant on a general scale of how fast things die in the game 
as a huge fan of the stuka, i dont need to watch replays  im using it as often as it seems viable and i seen ppl getting destroyed by it and ppl easily avoiding almost all barrages. i consider myself quite able to properly use it, yet there are ppl who simply know how to not get nuked to oblivion.
maybe its because you play 2v2 only and theres more to worry about on the battlfield at the same time, which kind of prevents you from focusing on dodging stukas. also its harder to flank that little monster with 2 players defending it. but nerfing it would totally nullify its viability in 1v1s, since getting one there is a huuuuge risk (no allies to get vehicles and 100 fuel invested in a 1.5 cd wpn)
then how about you give me advice to my play then, watch it then tell me what should i do. should i hide in my base and cede everything to them?
so in the end, 1v1 takes precedence as far as balance is concerned?
the reason why the stuka is so popular in build orders is because it is overperforming, not for cost maybe, but definitely for its ease of use. not even once should an artillery piece be part of a core army composition like infantry or tanks, instead they are reactionary weapons against defensive play styles. an artillery piece exist to bleed a defensive static opponent but is generally countered by mobile infantry and tanks. and even when bleeding them, they usually need substantial investment, like 2x, for any hope in squad wipe. if not they are usually just model damage and does nothing to a well prepared defensive line with staggered formations and well spread units.
however, stuka is just too effective. you only need 1 of them, easily wiping infantry and support teams. it comes early, it fires all its rockets and have a very small spread, also its rockets land almost immediately after it has fired its 1st shot. not to mention they are also extremely mobile. all these make them extremely reliable at doing immense damage in a very small time frame at very low risk. yes it takes a while to reload, but every 1.5mins for a good chance to wipe squads is too good a deal.
at 10mins, most armies are already looking at 200+ mp per min gain, at every 1.5mins, thats about 300mp gain. a stuka has a good chance of wiping all sorts of infantry squads if fired properly. which means even a maxim wipe, is a pretty good deal considering he is 240mp down and has only 60mp for reinforcements. now this causes outright haemorrhage to the player, that is not bleeding him. this is pretty much slicing his throat with blood splurting out and he dies shortly after, that is what a stuka is.
comparatively to other artillery guns, the only one that comes the closest at 10min artillery is katyushas which does not have the same killing power. if the katyusha has any similar killing power, the crying at this forums will be huge. |
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watch the bloody replays, then form an opinion. |
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shifted post to link instead |
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