The reason so many people are baffled by the katyusha's effectiveness is honestly, how devastating it can be to the German armies, but more specifically OKW. I'll focus on OKW and RU as that seems appropriate lately. With economic strains, veterency emphasis, and elite unit preservation in mind, the katyusha is simply far too punishing. I haven't played a game since the update where either myself, an opponent, or an ally has not preemtively retreated at the sound of katyusha fire and STILL lost a full squad (often vetted) outright within the first wave. There's still three more. This also isn't considering the issue that OKW is built on a foundation of building decisions. Currently, the katyusha makes that decision for you. In two waves of barrages, whatever truck you deployed is gone.
despite your nice essay on katyusha vs stuka, which is in my opinion very much 1 sided. i only want to talk about this part especially the ones in bold. elite status, economic strains and veterancy emphasis.
1stly, the only strains okw has are fuel. they get 100% munitions and manpower rate and as far as i know, the katyusha only counters infantry. it has a pen of only 50 and will not do anything to armour. at best, light vehicles can be damaged by stray rockets and destroyed by precision strikes. with that said, katyusha does barely any fuel damage and thus economic strains should not be used as a point in the argument. all other factions are also hit equally hard by artillery and manpower losses, so whats the point of bringing up, economic strains?
2ndly, elite status. there is nothing elite about okw, it is merely a description. they do not pay a premium for their units. infantry still cost as they should and infact are too cheap in some cases. for instance, obers and fallshirms. they cost around 400mp(not sure about falls) and for their cost, they do more dps than guards who when upgraded are 330 + 75*1.66 = 454mp. for comparison, the lmg34 obers have alone does more dps than the entire guards squad. of course, guards can button tanks and does minimal damage to armour but the point stands, where's the premium cost for their 'elite status'.
3rdly, veterancy emphasis. again means nothing. which faction do not need veterancy to survive in the field? the reason why okw infantry can vet to the high heavens is unknown, maybe for vehicles, yes because the fuel strain is there and they must preserve their vehicles and should be rewarded for it. but not for infantry, all faction MUST preserve their squads and again, the okw dont pay a premium for their infantry units, yet are able to vet to 5. this is not a real major problem early, but it adds up when volks with schrecks vet so fast to 5 and 4 k98 can hold the ground so long and dish out damage against dp-28s and conscript fire.
4thly, again said for the sake of saying. all factions do not get the whole tech unlocked. soviets must choose between t3 and t4. Ostheer cannot unlock all battle phases and get tanks fast enough. what building decisions are you talking about that is so unique to the okw? |
I disagree, contrary to popular belief, penals actually scale quite well at vet 3, and conscripts offer so much utility that IMO scaling them into elite infantry late game is overkill. Every soviet infantry squad has some sort of unique utility attached to them. Guards should not equal the combat effectiveness of obers, for example, because they have the added flexiblity of squad size, and button. Conscripts have the ever useful oorah, at nade, and molotov. Shocks are just monsters right now, and guards have the ability to dish out solid long range damage and act as soft vehicle cc. Soviet troops are extremely flexible and their squad size allows them to survive the late game. Buffing their scaling or damage output would put the faction even more over the top as they already have access to the widest range of heavy armor in the game.
obers are overperforming, that must be acknowledged. that 6man advanatage is offset by the 0.7 received accuracy. also a single lmg34 out dps the entire guards squad with dp28s. conscripts are only utility squads, like grenadiers or volks. which both the latter can scale well into the game. they should not scale into elite infantry, but they need help with their dps in late game and not retreat at the sight of every other infantry.
yes i didnt check my facts, but it sure feels that way. guards cannot fotm, unlike fusiliers and are also more expensive. fusiliers also have 6 man with fotm, these make them durable and effective in closing in the distance. most of the time, before guards have the time to do some damage, fusiliers are in medium to close range, where they will beat guards quite handily. if guards move, they also lose out by not being able to fire their their dp28s. so to speak, it isnt that far off to say they match guards. it was my fault to say they match at range, so let me rephrase that.
the ptrs are deadweights, they bring only absymal AT performance to the table. most of the time, guards arent used as AT infantry but AI instead with a minor AT support role and button. |
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i would say they need abit of tweaking. they can match guards with dp at range.
up the cost to make them less spammy would be a good start. but maybe this is more of a guards issue, than a panzerfusilier one. |
I keep saying the same thing over and over.
The two are completely different in how they apply damage.
The stuka is a fast devastating nuke that hits exactly where you want it to.
The kat is a fast devastating nuke that spreads its damage all over an area completely randomly.
Both will punish you if you blob, but the stuka has a much higer damage potential due to the 0 scatter and predetermined firing path.
I think the cool downs on both justify the kind of gains to be had by using them.
The issue is as stated, you can get to many goddamn kats on the field right now and it's not really very punishing if you lose them. Rather than nerf it back to uselessness I just want it to be more expensive to justify it as an expensive anti blob weapon.
But yea it needs a massive nerf vs buildings right now, that is just silly.
i dont think i wanted to nerf it in terms of effectiveness. AOE and dmg can stay, but not to buildings. also 60secs is way too fast for its effectiveness now. 75 seconds is much more reasonable relative to 120secs for the stuka.
precision strike is an effective ability and cost munitions. it is powerful, but it does not cause complete carnage like the stuka and over a line.
while i kind of agree losing a stuka is way more devastating than a katyusha. there's also the early arrival of stuka and lower tech costs in general for the okw. you said do not compare factions in a vacuum.
soviets have ineffective infantry against okw, oberspam beats a player going for katyusha because he has no medium armour. maybe its time for a change in strategy. |
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to those crying about using pumas, its the same with using t34s you numbskulls. finally got what you deserved.
also you can hear the sound when katyusha is firing, why arent you dodging? this is so much fun.
it hits a huge area and fills it with rockets, dont blob!
im really loving all these german tears right now. dont worry, you guys still have the best infantry that has been overperforming for way too long with the lmg34s. next up, nerf obers!
ok,seriously, it fires too fast and does too much to okw buildings, that is all. keep it at 75secs and let it do reduced damage to buildings and it will be fine.
it should never share the same cooldown as stuka because stuka is a precision artillery. katyushas has a huge degree of randomness and is heavily affected by scatter. katyushas cant wipe a lone mg42 or pak consistently unless rng hates you. the only time katyushas does epicly is against blobs, which is the reason why many of you are getting hit hard. time to learn the hard way and spread out. |
You repair when no one is around... OKW must be maphacking to see that.
or you know? ir ht. |
Panther needs fuel reduction IMO,its kinda overpriced, and to anyone who says the T-34/85 is a good medium..I sincerely suggest you try a couple of T-34/76 they are far better option.
nah, t34/76 is only good for lighter tanks. t34/85 is a complete upgrade that allows them to tackle heavies. also it is with commanders that have marked target.
tagged with a mate who went isu152 and crew shocks german heavies, t34/85 will wreck it in no time. i have seen t34/76 rear shots bouncing off. |
when that happens, the crying will be IMMENSE, on this forums.
2 wrongs dont make a right, it will be arty war all over again. vcoh had it for a nice period when the brits came in.
im going to sit back with popcorn and a large coke and watch the all the fireworks begin. |
But for Soviet player, I would like to see something more than Shocks + maxim vs OKW. Currently, choosing anything else is suicide vs OKW. Soviet feels like a one-trick pony faction, you must choose this build or else you're screwed.
but its solid, do anything else or ask to buff soviets and the entire forums will rage upon you, because ze vatherland is supreme. |
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blobbing is so powerful ad seemingly unstoppable not because it is easy, but because of the plethora of effective long range weaponry in the game.
lets look at the forces most likely to blob. USF, OKW and Ostheer. soviets rare blob because their infantry are the worst at range and rely mainly on closing in to deal damage.
as for USF, OKW and Ostheer. their main infantry are rifles, volks + falls/panzerfusiliers/obersoldaten and grenadiers. in all these infantry units, they are all capable of being upgraded with or comes with powerful lmgs that provide a huge boost in max range dps and its really easy to hit 80 long range dps and insta kill a model upon contact.
so here's the problem to why their very counters are being countered by blobbing tactics. once reaching a critical mass, whereby a blob as more then 80 long range dps, hmg are focused down and wiped within seconds even before suppression kicks in.
the solution is simple, all infantry long range weapons, must be nerfed. be it dp28, bars, browning, lmg42, lmg34, fg42 and g43s. they must be nerfed at long range and are only capable of insanely high dps in medium to short ranges.
currently, i would recommend a 20% cut in accuracy for long range for those weapons as a starting base.
this will make long range fights more drawn out and completely demolish the power of blobs as hmg are less prone to insta wipe through small arms and trying to close in with an entire blob will be destroyed by hmg and better positioned units, since moving into position means getting into effective range of another who is already stationary and ready to fire. |
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