Profile of Pip

Snip

Well, the tests seem to imply that the T-34s hull and coaxial MGs are better than the PIV's, though it doesn't support the assertion that they differ in the "Focus Fire" property". Perhaps that isnt what you meant, though. (More than just one test would be nice, incidentally)

I have heard before that the T34/76 and t34/85 do have abnormally strong hull/coaxial machine guns, though knowing the exact statistics would be nice. I'm not certain, but haven't the T34s MGs been tweaked in a patch in the last half-year?

Probable easy to test by hiding a squad behind a shotblocker and targeting a squad which is in sight nearby.

The answer is yes, surprisingly.

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Methodology:

Allied conscript squad set to "no autoattack", as well as being invulnerable. Fog of war was then enabled. Allied conscript squad set to "enemy", at which point the four MG42 fire upon the conscript squad on their side of the wall, instantly pinning it (but doing no damage, obviously, as it is invulnerable.)

The squad is then returned to allied control to stop the MG42 firing.

As can be seen, the squad on the other side of the wall, which was completely obscured from sight (and therefore targeting) still takes damage, and is also pinned. Apparently this lets you shoot through walls.

The test was repeated with a non-invulnerable squad, to ensure that wasn't affecting anything. Same result.

A further test was done with a camouflaged unit next to the Conscripts, who were also damaged and suppressed when the Conscripts were shot at, despite being cloaked. Damage to the cloaked squad through this also immediately pulls the cloaked squad out of camouflage, allowing it to be directly targeted.

Focus fire was BELIEVED to be an extra DPS.

Further testing done by several members of the community shown that it seems that it's just targeting random models which are close to the primary target PRE roll of either hitting or not.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/36347/cruzz-s-the-more-you-know/post/778759

This aligns with what I thought was the case, if true. The only two things that seem to be different from what I originally believed is that A: The targeting of random models can spread to other squads, not just the one originally targeted, and B: That it's a weapon property, not a squad property.

In any case, this is really quite interesting. I wonder what the radius for checks is? (And I also wonder if it allows a model to damage another that is otherwise "out of range")

Sanders once had a nice test pic of this. But no, focus fire means that a shot that missed the accuracy role might do damage to models in proximity.
But that's as much knowledge as there is out there. No one has tested it properly to try to find out how it works exactly.


I think this "projectile" is only a visual representation. If it is calculated as a projectile, then it had no meaning to the actual gameplay as far as I know.

I have done some testing and it does appear that "focus fire" is a weapon property, and not a squad property, as I had thought it to be. Are you sure it's the case that "missed" shots can strike nearby models, though, and not that accurate hits are spread across models instead? The former would imply that "focus fire: True" (That Obsersoldaten K98s and their MG34 seems to possess) is a negative quality rather than a positive one, and that weapon accuracy isnt actually strictly useful to calculate DPS. I'm assuming in this case that focus fire being "true" is the quality of damage NOT being spread, because that's the most logical way to talk about it.

I was usually of the mind that the tracers that units fire are indeed just visual, and not meaningful in a gameplay sense, but the fact that a squad can damage intervening obstacles when firing implies that there is some "projectile" calculation being done for small-arms.

Let me clarify something:
1) Mortars and similar units as far as I know do not go through accuracy checks at. For instance the pack howitzer has an accuracy of 1 and it would always hit if did go trough accuracy check.

As I already have pointed outed different weapons types like "ballistic", "explosion", "Big explosion" and the projectiles behave differently.

2) Focus fire is weapon property and not squad property and it does allow the damage to spread to more than one model. You can clearly see this with kubel that damage more than entity when it fire.

3) Small arm do not have projectiles because it would really mess up the engine to calculate the thousand of round fired in 4vs4 game. They can damage world objects PTRS destroying cover is prime example but that was done by the engine without a projectile being involved.

3) Shared veterancy is gained when the unit near gain veterancy (as far as I know) and since the target unit gain veterancy for taking damage the unit with shared veterancy would also gain.

The shared veterancy does not work with all units but specific units like infatry, hmg, mortars. Else units with shared veterancy near a tank would gain XP like crazy

4) Think faust bug is improved but not fixed completely.

Hope this helps.

1) Fair enough, strange that Lelic decided to do it that way. If I were designing it I would probably just have given these units zero accuracy instead, rather than having them skip the "accuracy" stage of firing. Perhaps there's some reason they do it like this.

2) Interesting, it does seem to be the case that it is weapon-based, rather than squad-based. Read the reply to Hannibal for further thoughts. Giving a BAR, for example, to an Ober squad does mean that that Ober model will start to spread damage, rather than it be focused on a single unit like his squadmates. Very interesting.

3) There's still a "projectile" (Not literally a physical projectile, I'm talking about a hitscan raycast, "projectile" is used for convenience) calculation being done when any model fires a weapon in this case, as the engine still needs to calculate whether there's an object in the way, and whether the squad "hit" it. There's no real way to get around having a raycast or some other calculation done here.

3(4)) I'm aware that there are tables defining what units/actions an unit can gain shared veterancy from, I was just unaware of the specifics for various units (And that model deaths give experience but cannot "level" shared veterancy, which from further testing appears to be the case for any unit. Damage taken/models lost can give veterancy, but you cannot gain a "level" of veterancy through taking damage or losing models. You must do damage to an opponent to level veterancy)

4(5)) I haven't seen it happen since the supposed "fix", but if it isnt yet gone entirely, I'm all for further tweaks.

I was not referring to barrages.

Mortar shots, scott shots..., aim at things but can not "score" hits they can however score collision hits.

Ah, i see, fair enough. It's probable that units such as the Mortar, Scott, etc, do go through accuracy checks, however, but it's probable that they simply have 0% accuracy. That's how I'd have programmed it, in any case.

It makes no functional difference though, you'd still be right that they can't score "hits".

There is no collision with infatry entities even for weapon with projectiles.

Small arm do not have a projectile to begin with.

Some weapon can hit entities via another mechanism available to HMG/ST44/BARS... called "focus fire"

Focus fire is, to my knowledge, not for the purpose you're stating. My understanding is that "Focus Fire" is a property that some elite squads have (notably Obersoldaten) that has all members of a squad aim at the same model, rather than randomly spread their aim/damage between models in a squad. All squads that don't have "focus fire" active will randomly shoot at any model that is in range

It doesn't mean that "missed" shots can hit, but simply that the squad/unit won't just shoot at a single model until it dies, and will instead change targets with every shot/burst.

Interestingly, with focus fire "off", an unit will randomly shoot at models in squads near to their target on occasion, as well as the squad they're ostensible "targeting" (Even if you direct them to shoot one squad specifically. With focus fire "on", a squad will NEVER hit a model outside of the squad they are targeting, and they will NEVER hit a model in the squad the unit is targeting other than the "focused" model (unless the firing model is simply out of range, in which case it will shoot at a different model). Evidently an HMG with "Focus fire" would be kind of bad, as it would be less able to spread suppression to multiple nearby squads (except through the "aoe" suppression mechanic)

Small Arms must have a "projectile" of some sort (Though it's clearly a hitscan raycast), due to them being able to hit intervening cover (and damaging it, at least visually) even with the "focus fire" property being set to "true", as evidenced here in this screenshot (Which also demonstrates the fact that Obersoldaten are bugged to have inherent suppression to their weapons)
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Unrelated, but I have also learned that shared veterancy (Such as that which the Kubel has) allows an unit to also gain experience when a model is damaged or is killed, as shown here in this image:
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However, this only works with infantry models. Nearby vehicle damage, or allied vehicle deaths, do not provide the Kubel any experience... and the Kubel also cannot gain a star a veterancy from either allied model damage, or allied model deaths. The kubel or a nearby allied infantry unit must do damage to, or kill, an enemy model or vehicle to push it "over the edge" and actually gain a level of veterancy.

The Kubel can apparently gain no experience from allied vehicles in any way, nor from allied AT guns (Even from model drops from that squad, or from crew damage, seemingly). I suppose that makes sense, as it would vet absurdly quickly otherwise.

None of this is important, or relevant to this discussion, but I thought it was interesting anyway, and was learned during the testing of relevant things.