It doesnt matter. Issuing an a-move or attack order moves the squad until every model can fire on the target. It doesnt stop them when the first model hits firing range (35), it stops them when EVERY model hits firing range , often leading to the closest model being maybe 32 range or so.
???
In theory a-moving ought to mean that everyone is in range, but this just isn't how it works. Fire up test mod and do some experiments. There will be situations where 3 models are firing against 2 models that are doing nothing other than posing for the camera. Situations where 5 models are firing against two models firing etc.
A-move is really really buggy is the bottom line, and this punishes long range squads trying to maximize their advantage.
If you don't believe me a-move a rifle squad into a gren squad from the angle where only the one gren is on the side of the triangle they form. I've done these tests. At some point it ends up with 2-3 rifles shooting at the grens with no return fire. |
I believe Grenadiers do require something. It is true that they can not maintain the frontline and have to retreat often and the fact they are limited to 4 man. The fact their received accuracy is worse than Tommies and Tommies can have 5 man with multiple upgrades although lack the ability to snare.
Overall Grens do require in some aspect either increasing the damage or survivability to make them more potent.
If anything in my aspect is survivability.
Instead of giving them extra man or extra damage. I was thinking of something different. Maybe in after Battle Phase 2, you can upgrade any of the Osteehr infantry units including support weapons to gain additional 10-20 HP to each model. To give them better chances than easy squad wipes. To sum this up, Grens 4 man in total have currently 320 HP, with upgrade they will get 400 HP. Around there.
I think this is a good resolution as it is not asking for too much or too little.
Currently they are a huge liability to many dangers in terms of being outnumbered and blown into pieces.
An upgrade that provides extra health / HP , I this is a clear resolution. It won't make them too strong nor as they are currently vulnerable.
I'm not a fan of adding HP. Not only does it mess with the uniformity of the game, but also the character of the army as, historically, the germans avoided attrition fights at all costs.
I'd much rather see greater lethality that gives defense through offense, but still leaves them vulnerable to poor positioning. |
On formations though, I fail to see how thats much of an issue for grens. Either you move into range to attack and all models will fire, or youre in cover and dont move up to have all models fire, in which the squad id clumped and all models will probably be firing anyway.
It has a lot of implications. In theory A-moving should maximize the value for your grens, but in many cases it'll bug out the formation leading to a loss. Other squads, such as conscripts can a-move into grens and win also if the formation bugs out. It's not true in all cases, but there are definitely cases where it happens. Rifles for example will win out a-move fights in both directions.
Yes you can micro the grens in a few steps closer, but in many match-ups there isn't a very large margin where grens will win, and the buggy formation makes that margin smaller, or even flips it. |
And grens have more dps at long range. So basically equal at short, 10% higher for grens at long. That more or less lines up with what I said about them being high damage, doesnt it?
Edit: maybe i made it seem like i was saying grens had noticeably higher dps than volks. My point was that theyre roughly equal to or better than volks at basically every single range (even if their advantage is minor)
Tommy dps on the chart is with the cover bonus (technically: without the out of cover penalty), so their out of cover dps is lower. Again, that more or less supports my assertion that grens are high damage, does it not?
At long range
Volks= 1.80*5=9
Grens=2.26*4=9.04
The squads do the same damage across all ranges. Volks have slightly more effective health.
WRT grens vs IS, grens have a 6% advantage at range 0
Grens=6*4*.8=19.2
IS=4.97*4*.91=18.1
Of course at 5 range, i.e. a range actually achievable in game IS are superior.
Gren=5.1*4*.8=16.3
IS=4.6*4*.91=16.7
At 35 range IS are a full 30% better.
Gren=2.3*4*.8=7.1
IS=2.9*4*.91=10.6
I'm not sure what the cover debuff is or else I'd calculate some stats for that.
With all that said I don't think it's fair to characterize grens as high damage. They are a 4 man duplicate of volks with less health, and thus less time doing damage, and even less time if you factor in the need for earlier retreating.
If you're going to assert that grens are high damage then it's not coming from their weapons. In most cases they have, at best, 10% higher damage at the longer ranges, which is rarely true as their formation is so deep that the last 1 or two models won't be firing. |
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Would it be possible to limit crew repairs to 90% of max health, or whatever the threshold is for snaring? |
Preffered range plays a big part in this. Both pgrens and cons are close to mid range oriented. However pgrens do significantly more damage in close esp. Their cost reflects this this forces cons to stay at range.
I agree that preferred range plays a big part. I'm not purposing a change to the range mechanics, and in fact I want them to be as close to the same as possible.
What I do want to do is to shorten the engagement length. I'm fine with conscripts being able to take a point under fire, but it should come with a heavy cost. Grens can't inflict that heavy cost because of their low dps.
I'm not particularly attached to changing pgrens as much as I am concerned about gren's performance. What does bother me about pgrens is that they currently lose to equal cost and similar role allied infantry such as shocks and thompson rangers/ paras.
There is no strong infantry option for OST that can dominate the field. I'm okay with that if you're able to punish bad allied play, but realistically there isn't an option for that. You can pick off models here and there, but that won't win you map control. There's also no real wiping capability for OST. |
But the pgrens capture the point or nutrelize it. I said cons get butcherd if they close in to contest the point. Did the pgrenz use their excelent nade in your test?
The same with grens vs cons. Cons can ofcourse win at long range against pgrens from cover.
Ost pio,s have extra sight range. So its quite a lot easier to spot for the ost mortar. Ost has camo in doctrines wich can hide pgrens etc. Allowing them to stop for quite a while next to pio,s. The even have spotting scopes in doctrines wich allow vehicles to see far when stationary.
It's a 340 mp squad, of which you can maybe field 2 if you're sane. Conscripts capturing under fire from grens will lose 2 models, and will likely take down a gren model unless they're in green cover.
Do you see the difference? In one situation a t0 unit can take a point under fire for the loss of 40-10 manpower, in the other situation a t2 unit can take a point under fire for the loss of 68 manpower. This is what is called an 'imbalance'. Now repeat this process for the 40-50 something times points can change control over the course of the game. |
It a little more complicated than that since the K98 does 12 damage and it take 7 shot to kill a model leading in a 4 damage overkill and thus the theoretical DPS is 5% higher than the practical.
To make thing even more complicated the ST44 does 4 damage and there might not be any overkill if a K98 and ST44 fires on the same entity.
A fair point, but I'd still take the volks as that last man will put in 16% more shots if not more when you factor in the safe retreat margin. |
222 scout car and Pioneers
If you're playing at a level where the other player is sitting still long enough for your pioneers to spot with their whole 7 extra vision then more power to you. Building a 222 just to spot for your mortar is kinda weird but okay. I think it's main gun will do more damage than the mortar, but no one is going to be sitting still and letting both your 222 and mortar shoot at it. |
You have it reversed though. Grens are high damage and low durability. Higher dps than volks at most ranges (iirc), and lowest effective hp of all mainlines. If theyre low lethality, then volks and tommies are too, which I would consider to be false.
Nope. Volks and grens have very similar weapon profiles, it's just volks do .8 the damage individually for similar squad DPS outputs.
At close range:
gren=5.9*4= 23.6
volks=4.7*5=23.5
Grens have less effective health though. 4/.91 = 4.3
I'm not sure whether the stats on the database for tommies are in cover or out, but i think it's without the cover bonus, and is better at long range, slightly worse at close range. The database lists .8 RA for tommies though, and .91 RA for grens. |
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