Increase grenadier damage, but move RA to battlephase 2&3

Ost has a problem. While the army is balanced around having strong crew weapons, it's obvious that spending the whole game suppressed by MG42s is poor gameplay.

Unfortunately the army as a whole is a bit under powered. I believe that this is due to the neither hot nor cold approach of balancing the 4 man squads. Grens, and even panzergrens have a bonus to RA, and individually strong weapons, but tend to be overwhelmed further and further as the game goes on. While the RA bonus is nice, either flavor of grenadiers don't have the damage output to force back flanking squads, or to claim territory. Even if you've got a gren squad already in position, a conscript squad can de-cap a cutoff and retreat with 3 models left. Since gren damage is biased to long range combat, you're unable to move in and contest the point unless you want to lose the engagement.

The low damage comes with another problem, namely a huge vulnerability to indirect fire. Since it takes so long to win engagements grens are sitting ducks for mortars etc. The low damage also reduces field presence. In the time it takes to actually win a fight the allied player has had much more time to reinforce their other squads that can now challenge that section of the map.

Finally comes the late game problem. Since all allied armies have a trump option available to them that will win out against grens and panzergrens, OST is rarely able to screen their tanks or AT guns. While they might have stronger armor by comparison, that armor tends to be less effective since you can't push forward with infantry to get LOS, nor can you fend off snaring squads.


In order to help bring OST into balance, without throwing off the early game too much I think that both grens and panzergrens should have their RA reduced by about 10%, but are given higher damage, mostly accuracy, to compensate. This would give OST players greater rewards for good play, while still preserving the glass jaw aspect to their infantry. The matchups would still play out the same, but grens would now be something you *have* to deal with before capping the cuttoff out in the open, or brazenly marching past to throw a grenade on the MG42. In order to keep grens competitive for the late game battlephase 3 and 4 should both come with a 5% bonus to RA. If possible I think a 10% 'armor' to explosive damage sources would also be reasonable.

I'm just gonna assume you mean battle phases 2 and 3 and change the title and polls accordingly.

I'm just gonna assume you mean battle phases 2 and 3 and change the title and polls accordingly.

Ah yeah. I was thinking tiers, but you're right.

Cons cant contest pgrens that cap or nulify a territory point.
Cons need to stay at range or be slaughterd. Also being a static vunerable target to the more accurate and better barrage ost mortar while they stay at range. That sitiation happens to other inf as well. It depends on the preferred range of the squad.

While ost lacks hp on inf they make up for that with very potent grenades. Self heal on the field. Doctr and Non doctr upgrades. Superior team weapons, sturdiers. The most cost efficient at mine. Extra sight on pio,s to better utilize support weapons. And popcap free mg bunkers.

Wich esp sov lacks on but they have the biggest squads.

You have it reversed though. Grens are high damage and low durability. Higher dps than volks at most ranges (iirc), and lowest effective hp of all mainlines. If theyre low lethality, then volks and tommies are too, which I would consider to be false.

Cons cant contest pgrens that cap or nulify a territory point.
Cons need to stay at range or be slaughterd. Also being a static vunerable target to the more accurate and better barrage ost mortar while they stay at range. That sitiation happens to other inf as well. It depends on the preferred range of the squad.

While ost lacks hp on inf they make up for that with very potent grenades. Self heal on the field. Doctr and Non doctr upgrades. Superior team weapons, sturdiers. The most cost efficient at mine. Extra sight on pio,s to better utilize support weapons. And popcap free mg bunkers.

Wich esp sov lacks on but they have the biggest squads.

I can't think of very many points on the map that don't have a green cover spot or building near the cap points, so conscripts can in most cases contest pgrens capping a point, and this the most extreme difference in infantry quality.

Using panzergrens to flip a standard territory point once in cheat mod with conscripts nearby:

Conscripts in green cover ends up 6:2 in the conscripts favor.
Conscripts in yellow cover ends up 5:2 in the conscripts favor.

Ost mortar is a a very bad investment in 1v1s, though I won't speak for team games. Theres no unit that can spot for it for very long, and most allied squads will be charging the spotter. The mortar itself can be charged quite easily and naded as well.

You have it reversed though. Grens are high damage and low durability. Higher dps than volks at most ranges (iirc), and lowest effective hp of all mainlines. If theyre low lethality, then volks and tommies are too, which I would consider to be false.

Nope. Volks and grens have very similar weapon profiles, it's just volks do .8 the damage individually for similar squad DPS outputs.

At close range:
gren=5.9*4= 23.6
volks=4.7*5=23.5

Grens have less effective health though. 4/.91 = 4.3

I'm not sure whether the stats on the database for tommies are in cover or out, but i think it's without the cover bonus, and is better at long range, slightly worse at close range. The database lists .8 RA for tommies though, and .91 RA for grens.

Ost mortar is a a very bad investment in 1v1s, though I won't speak for team games. Theres no unit that can spot for it for very long, and most allied squads will be charging the spotter. The mortar itself can be charged quite easily and naded as well.

222 scout car and Pioneers

222 scout car and Pioneers

If you're playing at a level where the other player is sitting still long enough for your pioneers to spot with their whole 7 extra vision then more power to you. Building a 222 just to spot for your mortar is kinda weird but okay. I think it's main gun will do more damage than the mortar, but no one is going to be sitting still and letting both your 222 and mortar shoot at it.

Nope. Volks and grens have very similar weapon profiles, it's just volks do .8 the damage individually for similar squad DPS outputs.

At close range:
gren=5.9*4= 23.6
volks=4.7*5=23.5

Grens have less effective health though. 4/.91 = 4.3

I'm not sure whether the stats on the database for tommies are in cover or out, but i think it's without the cover bonus, and is better at long range, slightly worse at close range. The database lists .8 RA for tommies though, and .91 RA for grens.

It a little more complicated than that since the K98 does 12 damage and it take 7 shot to kill a model leading in a 4 damage overkill and thus the theoretical DPS is 5% higher than the practical.

To make thing even more complicated the ST44 does 4 damage and there might not be any overkill if a K98 and ST44 fires on the same entity.

It a little more complicated than that since the K98 does 12 damage and it take 7 shot to kill a model leading in a 4 damage overkill and thus the theoretical DPS is 5% higher than the practical.

To make thing even more complicated the ST44 does 4 damage and there might not be any overkill if a K98 and ST44 fires on the same entity.

A fair point, but I'd still take the volks as that last man will put in 16% more shots if not more when you factor in the safe retreat margin.

A fair point, but I'd still take the volks as that last man will put in 16% more shots if not more when you factor in the safe retreat margin.

Imo VG are superior to grenadiers, I was simply clarifying about the DPS.

I can't think of very many points on the map that don't have a green cover spot or building near the cap points, so conscripts can in most cases contest pgrens capping a point, and this the most extreme difference in infantry quality.

Using panzergrens to flip a standard territory point once in cheat mod with conscripts nearby:

Conscripts in green cover ends up 6:2 in the conscripts favor.
Conscripts in yellow cover ends up 5:2 in the conscripts favor.

Ost mortar is a a very bad investment in 1v1s, though I won't speak for team games. Theres no unit that can spot for it for very long, and most allied squads will be charging the spotter. The mortar itself can be charged quite easily and naded as well.

But the pgrens capture the point or nutrelize it. I said cons get butcherd if they close in to contest the point. Did the pgrenz use their excelent nade in your test?

The same with grens vs cons. Cons can ofcourse win at long range against pgrens from cover.

Ost pio,s have extra sight range. So its quite a lot easier to spot for the ost mortar. Ost has camo in doctrines wich can hide pgrens etc. Allowing them to stop for quite a while next to pio,s. The even have spotting scopes in doctrines wich allow vehicles to see far when stationary.

But the pgrens capture the point or nutrelize it. I said cons get butcherd if they close in to contest the point. Did the pgrenz use their excelent nade in your test?

The same with grens vs cons. Cons can ofcourse win at long range against pgrens from cover.

Ost pio,s have extra sight range. So its quite a lot easier to spot for the ost mortar. Ost has camo in doctrines wich can hide pgrens etc. Allowing them to stop for quite a while next to pio,s. The even have spotting scopes in doctrines wich allow vehicles to see far when stationary.

It's a 340 mp squad, of which you can maybe field 2 if you're sane. Conscripts capturing under fire from grens will lose 2 models, and will likely take down a gren model unless they're in green cover.

Do you see the difference? In one situation a t0 unit can take a point under fire for the loss of 40-10 manpower, in the other situation a t2 unit can take a point under fire for the loss of 68 manpower. This is what is called an 'imbalance'. Now repeat this process for the 40-50 something times points can change control over the course of the game.

It's a 340 mp squad, of which you can maybe field 2 if you're sane. Conscripts capturing under fire from grens will lose 2 models, and will likely take down a gren model unless they're in green cover.

Do you see the difference? In one situation a t0 unit can take a point under fire for the loss of 40-10 manpower, in the other situation a t2 unit can take a point under fire for the loss of 68 manpower. This is what is called an 'imbalance'. Now repeat this process for the 40-50 something times points can change control over the course of the game.

My point was that cons cant close in to pgrens when pgrens are capturing. Pgrens will mostly slaughter them. Same as grens do when they close in to conscripts. Just because grens cant do something does not mean other unit cant as well.

Preffered range plays a big part in this. Both pgrens and cons are close to mid range oriented. However pgrens do significantly more damage in close esp. Their cost reflects this this forces cons to stay at range.

Preffered range plays a big part in this. Both pgrens and cons are close to mid range oriented. However pgrens do significantly more damage in close esp. Their cost reflects this this forces cons to stay at range.

I agree that preferred range plays a big part. I'm not purposing a change to the range mechanics, and in fact I want them to be as close to the same as possible.

What I do want to do is to shorten the engagement length. I'm fine with conscripts being able to take a point under fire, but it should come with a heavy cost. Grens can't inflict that heavy cost because of their low dps.

I'm not particularly attached to changing pgrens as much as I am concerned about gren's performance. What does bother me about pgrens is that they currently lose to equal cost and similar role allied infantry such as shocks and thompson rangers/ paras.

There is no strong infantry option for OST that can dominate the field. I'm okay with that if you're able to punish bad allied play, but realistically there isn't an option for that. You can pick off models here and there, but that won't win you map control. There's also no real wiping capability for OST.

All costs conciderd cons already pay a heavy price. Dropping models quicker and more overal. Needing 250mp and 35 fuel just for them basic snare and molly. Eating muni and requiering more micro to be relevant.

Now grens having low dps is incorrect. Their dps is pretty good next to their rifle nade and lmg. They only loose the most dps when they loose a model. Same for all 4 men squads

Ost has no real chance to wipe? Teller mine one shots all lights, s mines can wipe squads quite nicely esp on retreat paths. The rifle and bundle nade do very well damaging or even wiping whole squads. Flame tracks can easely wipe team weapons and retreating models etc.
So please dont claim that ost has no real chance of wiping. Ost is just more suceptibble to it, having only 4 men squads.

Schocks smg paras/rangers are doctrinal elite ai specialists. Pgrens are not. You dont fight elite ai specialists with the thing they counter one on one. You focus fire them with multiple squads or mg,s.
I dont attack pgrens with cons unless i outnumber them or use a tank or they have shrecks and i do the opposite.

I am not convinced that grens and pgrens need changing. I am of the opinion that volks rifles sections and penal are too good atm. Nerfing them is the way to stop this power creeping.

Nope. Volks and grens have very similar weapon profiles, it's just volks do .8 the damage individually for similar squad DPS outputs.

At close range:
gren=5.9*4= 23.6
volks=4.7*5=23.5

Grens have less effective health though. 4/.91 = 4.3

I'm not sure whether the stats on the database for tommies are in cover or out, but i think it's without the cover bonus, and is better at long range, slightly worse at close range. The database lists .8 RA for tommies though, and .91 RA for grens.

And grens have more dps at long range. So basically equal at short, 10% higher for grens at long. That more or less lines up with what I said about them being high damage, doesnt it?
Edit: maybe i made it seem like i was saying grens had noticeably higher dps than volks. My point was that theyre roughly equal to or better than volks at basically every single range (even if their advantage is minor)

Tommy dps on the chart is with the cover bonus (technically: without the out of cover penalty), so their out of cover dps is lower. Again, that more or less supports my assertion that grens are high damage, does it not?

NO NO NO

And grens have more dps at long range. So basically equal at short, 10% higher for grens at long. That more or less lines up with what I said about them being high damage, doesnt it?
Edit: maybe i made it seem like i was saying grens had noticeably higher dps than volks. My point was that theyre roughly equal to or better than volks at basically every single range (even if their advantage is minor)

Tommy dps on the chart is with the cover bonus (technically: without the out of cover penalty), so their out of cover dps is lower. Again, that more or less supports my assertion that grens are high damage, does it not?

At long range

Volks= 1.80*5=9
Grens=2.26*4=9.04

The squads do the same damage across all ranges. Volks have slightly more effective health.


WRT grens vs IS, grens have a 6% advantage at range 0
Grens=6*4*.8=19.2
IS=4.97*4*.91=18.1

Of course at 5 range, i.e. a range actually achievable in game IS are superior.

Gren=5.1*4*.8=16.3
IS=4.6*4*.91=16.7

At 35 range IS are a full 30% better.

Gren=2.3*4*.8=7.1
IS=2.9*4*.91=10.6


I'm not sure what the cover debuff is or else I'd calculate some stats for that.


With all that said I don't think it's fair to characterize grens as high damage. They are a 4 man duplicate of volks with less health, and thus less time doing damage, and even less time if you factor in the need for earlier retreating.

If you're going to assert that grens are high damage then it's not coming from their weapons. In most cases they have, at best, 10% higher damage at the longer ranges, which is rarely true as their formation is so deep that the last 1 or two models won't be firing.