And as long as it has the radar ability being able to spam for both fighting and recon reasons it is a bad idea. That is why I suggested limiting radar to one.
In addition my point was not that it should not receive some sort of buff but that comparing to AEC only in DPS is misleading.
Finally If one want infantry kills one can simply use it to crush it one of the best crushes in the game.
How does one spam valentines without getting totally steamrolled? Like I said, they're not the best combat tank and come at 6cp, so aside from crushing, which is a death sentence for the valentine because almost every axis infantry squad has panzerfausts or actual AT, it won't be able to kill stuff at the time when it hits the field. It's also only 30 fuel more plus tech to just spam Cromwells, which literally do two times the damage to tanks on penetration, can crush inf almost just as well, and can actually hit and splash on infantry. Valentine basically exists for the maphax, which is cheesy, but that's the whole point of the thing. |
On the other hand Velentine has real armor that does not take damage from HMG and not tech cost.
Yeah but it comes at 6cp and can't hurt jack shit (will miss vetted infantry and tickle tanks' paint jobs, even on penetration)
by that time even if it doesn't get blown to kingdom come by a real medium. |
Yeah, unfortunately that is the case. Frankly, I believe that an emphasis on 1on1 has led us to where we are now in terms of popularity, and lethality. In that respect it makes more sense to balance for the absurd and then have the changes trickle down to smaller modes. Regardless, It's clear that most people would rather play team games; but, that's a discussion for another thread.
In response to you trying to sneak in the idea of an MG34 at every opportunity in the discussion I'm of the notion that you have enough fire power to have a reasonable opening without a suppression platform. Is it one dimensional, probably, is that necessarily a bad thing/is an OKW player significantly worse off without it? Debatable, I tend to side with the discourse primarily 'cos I can remember the Kubelwagon with suppression + Sturm charges; the effect would be the same only slightly later in arriving.
ps. forget the Luchs, double leigs will contend with anything the allies can throw at you, plop down the Schwerer and they're going to be hardpressed not to spend precious resources on indirect fire; that is, if they can catch up in the first place.
In regards to openings, okw, nay, axis in general, is supposed to be a start slow build up into late game type of faction, so it would make sense for them to have a crappy one dimensional opening. I mean, usf past 30mins is literally spam as many jacksons and bar riflemen as you can, so it does sort of reflect there too, just in a mirrored way. It is also worth noting that okw still had a lot of variety in openings, what with good but expensive and kinda fragile assault troops right off the bat, cheap, spammable, "good enough" volks, the kubel, a fast capping, infantry bleeding machine gun car, and a t0 at gun. That's arguably a lot more than other factions have access to at the beginning of the game, and none of it requires teching or constructing a building. I'm not claiming it's overpowered or beats out allied infantry, but it does the job and it's all there, and volks plus Sturm's plus kubels can have some crazy cool synergy sometimes, speaking both from using and having it used against me.
Yeah, double leigs and schwerer is basically simcity on roids but without brace. |
Alright, that sounds feasible, however you're not accounting for the fact that we are complete noobs that just got the game, getting an early MG out sounds like the best idea since we read a tip on machine guns while loading the match.
Well if you're total noobs you would probably also be playing against total noobs, so volkspam should hold you over till you get a truck set up somewhere, which in turn should hold you over till you get a panzer hq, and when the first tanks hit the field, yours will be way better, you will have bled far less manpower from using volks instead of penals/rifles/IS and from playing defensively, so even if he does get tanks before you, you will have the advantage provided you survived this long. Also, keep in mind that till forward retreat points start hitting the field, the allies will have to retreat realllllly far on most 4v4 maps if they are playing aggressively. |
Imagine on maps with large buildings or on smaller game modes how broken the initial sturmpio would be with same-player mg support. You could just rush a building with your sturms and then throw the mg in and boom. Huge lockdown on allies. Failing that, you still have the only good squad with automatic weapons on the field at this time, and cheap spammable volks, along with a fast capping kubel and t0 (albeit arguably crappy) at gun now with a machine gun creating a disproportionately strong and varied army right out the gate. It'd be like if soviets got penals, clown car, zis, and maxim from their starting hq. Broken. |
Yeah, it's too cheesy. No doubt this will get rebalanced in some way. You either get to keep the fire-in-FoW mechanic, or fire accurately, but not both.
On the other hand, I see no good reason why the ability would require you to tech up, and tech Anvil, in particular, if you are to gain access to Airburst shells. You're still paying the same cost, after all.
Also, I can't believe that nobody mentioned the prime advantage that Priest has over the Sexton; the crew can jump out, allowing you to have mass Priests.
Priest should, ideally, be worth 12 popcap, non-decrewable. Sexton could be 10-popcap with its current performance, non-decrewable. Valentine could also stand to shift from maphax-cheese-enabler to actual-synergy with-Sexton.
I think that the proper nerf for it would be decreasing the accuracy slightly on the concentration fire ability since the FoW targeting is the whole gimmick of the ability and is what makes it worth 100 muni and an ability slot, as otherwise it's just an expensive version of the infantry thrown coordinated fire.
I did not know you could do that with priests and that's really OP. You could just have one priest crew and rotate it between priests to have all vet3 priests and pretty much constant arty fire in bigger teamgames when you start getting fuel out the ass.
Any ideas for discussion about how to make the valentine worthwhile without maphax? I would vote making it a better anti infantry unit, reducing its cp cost, and/or making the vet ability ignore cool downs and/or include base howitzers in exchange for removing the maphax. Or maybe a recon run ability. All just ideas off the top of my head. |
I do agree that Call-Ins should get normalized to Tech. It still boggles my mind how they thought T85s needed to be Tech but Lend Lease Shermans are ok to be No-Tech?
I think Tank Balance is mostly okay aside from some tweaks. Crushwells need to crush less well and Comets are probably too good. SU-76 and StuG are maybe-probably too efficient. Ostheer Panther, Bulldozer Sherman likely needs some kind of buff and maybe Centaur needs some kind of mobility buff or something. But on the whole nothing is too game-breaking I think.
That's pretty much how I feel about tanks. IMO Ost p4 could use something too, whether it's skirts at vet0 and a price increase (make it the okw p4) or a fuel decrease or something. Ost panther should be made a little more like okw panther too I think (I think okw one has a little more main gun consistency). M4Cs are a little worse than t34-85s though right? Or are they about even? Still, all call-ins should definitely be locked to tech. |
Air burst shells explode downward thus creating a large area of affect. They also have very little spread. The Aoe will cover your exact target. One hammer is researched they will added to the barrage. In fact they do not remove the the shell that are usually fired. Air burst are excellent vs weapon teams and wounded infantry. They also inflict blink vehicle crits and have a good penetration. Air burst shells are the most powerful part of Anvil. People compare Churchill and Comet when they should compare Air burst shells vs Comet.
In regards to the bolded part, that they don't remove the normal shells. What does that mean? That the air burst shells just get added in on top of the regular old kill-one-pio-model variety? Or what? From my experience playing with them I did appear to see regular 25 pounder shells landing around the target zone. I usually use them in the fog of war with the concentrated fire ability so I didn't really know exactly what they did even though I knew they were pretty good. I do definitely agree that they are the best part of anvil and I know that that's primarily why I go for it. Churchills are just sort of there, icing on the cake, more like gammon bombs or track vehicle in hammer. |
Shocks do their job very well, but said job isn't valuable in the current meta.
If all match ups were possible Shocks would be incredible against the UKF and mandatory vs USF.
That's the thing: they're not really a blob counter and they can't trade well with other close combat infantry (so almost all okw infantry plus pgrens) and team weapon spam in late game is usually backed up by one or the other, with tanks and vehicles on top of all that. |
Saw this thread. Thought i'd give it a go.
Played a 4v4 against 3 OSH and 1 OKW On Red ball Express.
Basically I played against only the the OSH on the leftside.
My russian allies against OKW on the right.
Built half muni and half fuel caches.
Every 100 munitions was devoted to air-bursting OKW healing station. While I couldn't see the action.... I could hear the screaming through FOW.
Replay revealed the coordinated fire ability nullified all OKW infantry and hidden Rakens. Soviet players then able to overwhelm OKW simcity.
Thought it was nice to try out a different meta.
Yeah I've been playing with it for a while too and I actually really enjoy it. Could definitely use some buffs to most of its abilities IMO though.
My list of buffs to make it more appealing (probably not all at the same time, and worth noting I'm an Allies player):
Reduce valentine cp requirement (6? really?)
And/or make the valentine main gun beter against infantry (it does do only half damage to tanks on penetration after all).
Maybe reduce Suxton popcap by 1-2 (especially considering how much pop brit armies take up).
Somehow make perimeter overwatch not a 225 muni steaming pile of shit. |