The IS-2 definitely seems weak compared to other Heavy Tanks and completely inferior to T-34/85's or the ISU. I think the main thing letting it down is its anti-infantry just doesn't cut out unless you get good RNG. Even a single T-34/85 seems to be better against infantry. I don't know why there's such a disparity between anti-infantry firepower for heavy tanks. At least the Pershing has good damage now, the Is-2 feels like the pre-buff Pershing but slower in exchange for more health/armor. It's not unusable, but I don't see any use case for the IS-2 over other stronger options.
Sorry, but this is just bullshit. All heavies, exluding the KV-2, are actually very similar in DPS and KPS. Some reload faster and have lower scatter and AoE, others (like the IS-2) hit harder, but less often and with lower precision to compensate. Still, if you compare them in the same setup they are very close in actual AI performance and much better than any medium or premium med of their respective factions. Yes, the T-34/85 deals solid AI, but it's still miles apart from what an IS-2 can dish out, especially once upgraded with the pintle.
You could probably argue that the IS-2 is worse with respect to AI to cost ratio, but as far as raw damage output is concerned it's not even a contest.
Yeah, chances are it is just a forgotten oddity from earlier development stages. Sometimes the editor reads like a DNA profile with loads of obsolete blueprints still left in its database...
Anyway, I guess the focus wasn't really so much on why this stat exists in the first place, but rather how easy it is to make good use of it. And especially vs big and heavily-armored targets that tend to have a much higher frontal to rear armor ratio and are easy to hit due to their huge hitboxes this can really make a difference. After all, you're in a low-risk, high-reward scenario if you attack ground behind the target when at close range - the chances to miss completely are abysmally small and, in the worst case, instead of getting a rear armor hit you'd roll a frontal armor hit, which you would have done anyways if attacking normally.
Personally, I think the IS2 is crippled by being originally designed in COH as an analogue to the Tiger 1, when historically it was closer to the Tiger 2 in terms of armor protection and firepower. If I could redesign the unit from the ground up, I would make it a heavily armored, slow RoF vehicle with the same main gun damage stats as the KT (Slower reload obviously.) To compensate for slow RoF, it should instead have faster movement speed than the KT, and maybe a wider AoE on each shell so it damages infantry in a wider radius (but doesn't kill anymore than the KT does.)
It would obviously have to be priced around as much as a KT with these changes though.
I get why people are advocating for a change like that, but gameplay-wise I'd argue this isn't a very good solution. If you want a hard-hitting, heavily-armored, 240 DMG vehicle with slow reload to compensate you already have the KV-2, which fills this niche quite nicely. Turning the IS-2, or better the 122mm main gun into a KV-2 clone would rather remove some of its uniqueness IMHO, not add more to it.
At the moment, the IS-2 is pretty much a Tiger I analogue in terms of performance - a bit worse at AT duties (taking both survivability and damage output into account) and a tiny bit better AI-wise. It also already has a much larger AoE compared to the Tiger I, which sources most of its AI DPS from the fast reload speed in exchange for hitting less models at once.
So in terms of "flavor" the differences you propose are already there, and although scaling the IS-2 to be more of a Tiger II equivalent is certainly possible, I don't think this would change anything with respect to how viable it is in teamgames. The same counters that make it a sub-par choice in larger game modes (at least according to those who play these modes) would still hard-counter it in almost the same way.
Overall, I'd say the IS-2 is fine the way it is, even though it might not be a 100% accurate representation of the real-world namesake. The only thing I'd change is maybe to make the vet-1 skillshot a bit less telegraphed and awkward to use. This alone could give it a huge boost and also make the 122mm cannon live up to its name - at least vs infantry.
Yeah, this might very well be the reason. It still wouldn't explain why it is 10 m for virually every unit bar 4 exceptions, though. Guess this one will remain a mystery unless anyone involved in the development process spills the beans...
I noticed some weird shit like this a few months ago when OST would pop smoke and I would frantically attack ground. I think it works better with turreted tanks since I have never seen it with SU85.
I haven't tested the SU-85 specifically, but it seems to work just fine with any tank I tested. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if you could actually pull this of with hand-held AT as well...
This is cheesing the game engine on a whole new level.
I only had time for a quick read so I might have missed it:
Why is it important to ground attack? Do normal "accuracy" shots behave differently? I know they often ignore world objects, but to they always impact on the frontal armor then?
Also, do you have any idea why it exists? Would Coh2 really be THAT buggy if shots didn't phase through for a couple of meters. If so, why is it shorter for only a hand full of units?
Or is this just a weird remnant of a CoH developer entering a random value because he forgot that the SOP said "10"...
Yeah the normal accuracy hits seem to always hit the front part if the targeted tank faces even just a bit forward (i.e between +89 and -89°) and vice versa for rear armor shots. Not sure what would happen if you hit exactly 90° side-on though, that would probably be worth to test. Also, for scatter shots to show this weird behavior you have to always fire at least some distance behind the target. The exact extent you need to overshoot seems to correlate with the distance scatter of the weapon; if some part of the scatter cone lies inside the hitbox of the target the whole thing doesn't work and you get a frontal hit instead (and not only sometimes, like if a shot would scatter too short to make it out of the tank's hitbox, but apparently it never at all). Hence why, even if you somehow managed to fail the accuracy roll of a regular attack at point blank, the scatter shot wouldn't phase through the front border of the hitbox.
That makes me think this is indeed some buggy and unintended interaction, and I've got no idea why it is even in the game. Maybe a remnant of some obscure bugfix in the very early days of CoH2's development that never got deleted? Hard to say for sure.
The editor description states that "distance_scatter_obj_hit_min" cannot exceed 10 m, yet for practically all weapons this is set to 10 by default. So whatever purpose it might have originally had to tweak this value, it seems pretty much redundant now.
Then again, it opens the door for shenanigans such as this, so there is certainly a purpose nonetheless
Ever wanted to consistently score those juicy rear armor hits but flanking isn't really your thing? Well, don't fret because I'll show you a slightly unorthodox (and arguably rather situational) way to do just that - right through the front door... uhmm… armor!
“Impossible?!” you say? Let’s find out how it works.
While playing around with hit boxes and how these interact with scatter values the other day, I stumbled upon a peculiar entry in the attribute editor, "distance_scatter_obj_hit_min", that left me scratching my head about what it actually does.
As it turns out (from the editor description anyways) this defines how far a projectile travels without collision detection, or to put it another way, how far it will actually phase through any objects it would otherwise collide with. These objects include your run-of-the-mill shotblockers, such as tank wrecks or those little tractors scattered around Faymonville, but also other things projectiles are usually meant to collide with – like the nearly impenetrable frontal armor plate of a King Tiger!
However, what goes inside a tank, must also come back out somehow, and if the projectile happens just to be able to phase through the front of the tank before travelling the distance set in distance_scatter_obj_hit_min, the next thing it will collide with is the rear armor of the tank! That is, of course, if you manage to set it up correctly. The following pictures explain how to do just that:
Step 1: Place your tank within the right distance to the target. Not too far away, since you want the fired projectile to be able to phase through the front armor (blue line) and into the tank before the collision immunity runs out. But not too close either, as otherwise the projectile is going straight through the whole tank without colliding with the rear armor section (red line).
The collision immunity range is 10 m for the vast majority of the game’s arsenal (dashed red arrow), but there are a few exceptions where this distance is 5 m (namely the SU-76, T-34/76, KV-1 and Churchill tanks). As a rule of thumb, try to stay within about a tank’s length (half of that with the tanks mentioned before) to your target and you’re good to go.
Step 2: Attack ground behind the tank so that the projectile’s flight path intersects with some part of the rear armor of your target. Generally, the farther the better, but make sure to aim at least far enough so that the entire scatter cone (white trapezoid) lies outside of the target’s hit box. The minimum distance depends on the actual scatter values for each tank gun, but again you’re on the safe side if you attack ground at least 1.5 tank lengths behind the target.
Step 3: Profit!
Pulling this off in-game is arguably not always easy, but can be very satisfying if you can make it work. And as an added bonus, you can also make use of the collision immunity in a defensive setup.
For example, hiding behind a shotblocker as in the picture below will allow your scatter shots to still hit the target, while your opponent's will hit the wrecks instead (statter shots only, of course).
It is mean to, Why would anyone invest in these expensive AI units if they could be stopped by single ATG?
I kinda agree with this. Tanks like the 105 Dozer and Brummbär should be a greater threat to AT guns than vice versa. If anything you could argue that they could become a bit more susceptible to tanks as those should be their natural counters. Right now at least the Brum can get out of harms way quite quickly if things go south and hunting it down is rather difficult. I think a slight acceleration nerf, as was proposed in another thread a while ago could go a long way to make overextending with these tanks more punishing. Other than that I'd say their durability is fine.