This is a highly misleading presentation.
While your numbers are correct, for example the chance of 4 penetrating shots in a row is less than 5%, given that all shots hit in the first place which is unlikely due to the comparatively low accuracy of the KV2.
Comparing those two tanks in terms of AT makes no sense, the Panther is miles ahead, even without deflection damage.
I don't see the KV-2 nearly as far behind, honestly. Sure, the +10 range, higher mobility and better (moving) accuracy give the Panther the edge as long as it can kite or circle, but if you take raw damage, penetration and chance to hit only, the KV-2 is actually superior.
Placed stationary and facing each other at 40 m distance, the KV-2 will win about 66% of the time - despite lower accuracy and pen thanks to the deflection damage it deals (T2K is about 50 +/- 15 s and 55 +/- 10 s for the KV-2 and Panther to win, respectively). If deflection damage could actually kill tanks instead of just dropping them to 0 HP the difference would be even greater.
In addition, the KV-2 gets +10 range at vet 2, which is when the range advantage of the Panther vanishes and things get pretty even. Again, the Panther has the upper hand while both tanks are moving, but I'd say both tanks exchanging max range shots before dropping back into safety is a more realistic scenario, anyway. Here, the much slower reload for the KV-2 isn't that much a disadvantage and stutter-stopping for more accuracy / lower scatter is also easier to pull off.
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I dont know how are you guys fetching the reload speed but I got it from here: https://coh2.serealia.ca/. It says 9 reload duration for non siege mode and 10-12 for siege mode which would mean obviously the reload is slower in siege mode for some reason. This is what I based my issue on.
The reload speed listed at serealia's site is kind of correct, as the weapon profile itself states a reload of 10 - 12 s (11 average). However, for whatever obscure reason this value gets multiplied by 0.75 upon activating siege mode, giving the ~8.5 s total mentioned before.
Why this multiplier is pretty well hidden in the siege mode ability tab and not simply changed for the weapon profile used during siege mode is a mystery to me and a good example why it is always good to second-guess any stats listed somewhere. If I hadn't tested this by accident the other day I would probably never have known... |
Now I never said the IS2 was worst than the Iiger, In fact I have no opinion on it because I barely use it myself and only play Soviet in non competitive matches. What I highlighted is that Average DPS overtime isn't a valid argument if you don't define what the correct opportunity time in which units can deliver their outcomes. And this opportunity time can't be seen in a spreadsheet.
Well, then how would you define and quantify this ominous opportunity time and how does it differ for, say, the IS-2 and the Tiger? |
What I find most irritating about the siege mode is the obscenely long tear-down time. IIRC none of the other set up / hulldown abilities have a 5 s delay before being able to issue commands again, which makes it very easy to get caught with your pants down. A reduction or even an outright removal of this delay would make the ability much more usable.
With regard to the reload, Vipper is correct:
The stat on KV-2 are probably inaccurate, KV-2 has weird reload bonus that applies in siege mode and ROF should be about equal on siege and Tank mode.
There is a 0.75 reload duration multiplier upon activating siege mode that cuts down the average reload to ~8.5 s, slightly below that of the normal shell. So you could say the crew is at least a tiny bit more focused on reload while not in their driving seats, although their aim still seems to suffer for some reason (Vodka?). At similar distance, the indirect shots have noticeably higher scatter than the normal rounds, which is somewhat strange considering the immobilized tank should have an easier time bringing the payload down range with high accuracy.
I don't quite agree to the assertion that the KV-2 is useless against anything bigger than a PzIV, though. In a head-to-head stand-off vs a Panther at 40 m it should come out on top in about 2 out of 3 confrontations. For a mainly AI-focused tank this is really good, not sure if it should be even more potent than that. |
[...] Because people say I will break your nose every 20 minutes in most casual conversation.
Someone walks into your office then makes that face babies make when they are shitting. What do you say? "Dont you dare fart in here or I will break your nose!"
We as a species have this innate ability to ignore the facts or use logic when something like this is presented. This #MeToo cancel culture is retarded.
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You see, this is exactly what I don't get. Not sure if this is simply a result of cultural differences in general, or upbringing / socialization in particular, but I would certainly not voice or text thinly veiled threats to come to someone's home and break their nose in three different ways - no matter what context and no matter if in real life or online.
Now I agree this, seen as an isolated event, isn't something anyone should be perma-banned for (and I doubt that is the case here anyway, as there's obiously a lot more backstory that led to the ban). Still, I also fail to grasp how anyone can defend these screenshots as harmless chit chat that could have been exchanged as part of normal everyday conversation.
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This is my point entirely. It is NOT OBVIOUS. We do not know what lead up to this conversation.
For all we know, Kimbo and Sturmpanther are dating and this is how they talk to each other when flirting. Maybe yesterday Sturmpanther said he would go punch Kimbo in the nose. We dont know.
You seriously want to downplay this shit as 'harmless friendly online banter'? Even IF there has been a prelude to the chat excerpts posted here, this is by no means an appropriate response any reasonable person would give and oversteps multiple boundaries, including legal ones (in most european countries at least). Not to mention Kimbo made it abundantly clear he is NOT joking in the 2nd screenshot.
I don't care how good a player he may be - the CoH community is definitely better off without him. |
I tend to not compare units in a vacuum. Their IA dps is probably the same in average but they don't belong to the same faction and not facing the things. I'll not say that gut feeling is better metric than average but there are hidden reasons you don't see the IS2 as often as the Tiger nowaday even if their average IA dps are the same.
So, even considering there are less Commanders with the IS2 than there are with Tigers, this doesn't work as a single explanation, there are a lot commanders with few specific units that are seen a lot more than IS2.
fair enough and reasonable. i was, however, responding to the part that the tiger was allegedly way superior to the is-2 in terms of anti-infantry performance, not to the overall position of the is-2 in the soviet roster. there are obviously many reasons the is-2 sees little use, but i don't think a 240 dmg cannon will solve these (at least not without creating a bunch of new issues along the way). |
[...] And so is loading green infatry on m36/scotts to gain veterancy.
While you're technically right about the possibility, in a real game scenario you'll hardly ever have the time to put a combat squad into a tank to gain vet instead of actually fighting alongside your armor. This might work for RE squads who don't contribute too much to your overall fighting force, but if you try this with a ranger squad against any capable opponent you'll end up on the back foot almost immediately.
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That's the problem when you compare units on spreadsheet, you can't simply take average dps as a serious point of comparison wihtout taking in account the average time of engagement for units.
Coh2 isn't an game of average but a game of opportunities and the best units in this game are those capable of delivering their full load of outcome at every given opportunities.
It is better to handle a unit able to deliver 30 per shot but with 100% chance to deliver than a unit delivering 90 per shot but with only 33% chance to hit.
Because you never know if you'll have those 3 opportunities to hit and making sure you did something.
You're certainly right in that average DPS isn't necessarily the best or most holistic way to compare the performance of different units. Adding the variance or, even better, probability distributions would be more suitable to capture the 'reliabiliy' you mentioned. However, numerical averages are still an absolutely viable and easy to grasp metric to compare all sorts of things, ranging from pen chances to win rates. That why they're used (rightfully so) by everyone - you included - nearly all the time when comparing different aspects of the game. AI performance is no exception here. It also doesn't matter at all if this info comes from a spreadsheet or actual in-game data. In this case, however, it is just vastly easier and more precise to collect enough data by external means unless you want to spend literal days to repeat the same matchup over and over.
I haven't gone into more detail as to why I believe both the Tiger and IS-2 are roughly equal in AI, but if you're interested and inclined to do so you can read up on the specifics over here. I'm also happy to give you a rundown on how the average DPS already incorporates to the actual chance to hit something and how this relates to the overall AI performance.
Or, if you can come up with a better metric for quick and easy comparison, I'm all ears... as long as it is at least somewhat quantifyable and doesn't rely on 'gut feeling' or 'because I told ya so'.
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the reasons might be that a tiger can tear up squads with it's laser cannon, causing stronger bleed
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And this is just wrong, no matter how often you repeat it. The Tiger's 88mm is obviously stronger against vehicles but against infantry, both guns are more or less equally effective and will inflict the same amount of bleed over time on average (not taking faction specifics like squad size and reinforcement cost per model into account, which would actually skew things in favor of the the IS-2).
because at vet 0, 1, 2, 3. Tiger give you a better value than IS-2. It also easier to handling because it gun is too good.
Second, ability from Commander. No Doubt Tiger always have better thing around it than IS-2.
Third, 160 damage per shot is P****, I would take 240 damage per shot at vet 0 with 40% lower rate of fire from current IS-2. This is a massive 122mm gun after all.
Well, this would not only bump up the average DPS by quite a bit, but, more importantly, be a massive buff against 960 HP targets such the Panther. In this case the 160 damage gun would take 2 more shots to kill than the 240 damage version, while against other targets (such as mediums or heavies like the Tiger) the proposed change would barely have any effect.
I doubt it would be worth it to upset the current balance just for the sake of having 240 damage on the main gun. If the lack of AT is really that much of a concern I'd rather improve penetration or add a bit of deflection damage, since this would affect the performance against almost all targets equally.
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