KV-2 Vet 3 reload buff and siege mode

There is no reload duration decrease as KV-2 vets up to vet 3. The reload duration stays the same at 9. Now I understand that it is a howitzer on wheels but why does the Brummbar, Stug3, Scotts have reduction in reload speed as they vet up but the Kv-2 does not? Even the super heavies like ISU has reduced reload duration with vet 3 for the HE shells, mobile artys also get the reload duration reduction with vet. Static howitzers like Ml-20 and Lefh also get the reload duration reduction, so I dont understand why Kv-2 does not get the reload duration buff at vet. Giving it a buff will make it actually helpful in fending of panther dives so that it can actually contribute in the AT engagements regardless of it bouncing off.


The siege mode is beyond broken for me. Since the crews are not focusing on moving the tank you would believe that it would be used in increasing reload speed or something else. But in siege mode the reload duration is further increase to 11 as compared to before. The 70 range howi shells are so slow that it rarely does anything good, the trajectory is visibly slow if you watch the shell travel through air and then you have 11 reload for the next slow shot. Now Kv2 in siege mode is a sitting duck since it cannot fend for itself and makes it easier for enemies to push and get a snare of on it. So now when Kv2 is pushed in siege mode there is a heavy delay in making the tank mobile for some reason. There is absolutely no benefit in using the siege mode for this vehicle.

Now I understand removing these issues will make the vehicle overkill and dominating but the changes could be made on reload speed for both these two points mentioned above. Now if you believe that will make the unit absolute monster against infantry than thats exactly what it should be since its a heavy tank and does not fare good against anything better than panzer 4. Brummbar at vet3 has more frontal armor, slower reload rate and the bunker buster ability and its a stock unit so you can pair it up with panzer tactician to for evasion.

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The stat on KV-2 are probably inaccurate, KV-2 has weird reload bonus that applies in siege mode and ROF should be about equal on siege and Tank mode.

What I find most irritating about the siege mode is the obscenely long tear-down time. IIRC none of the other set up / hulldown abilities have a 5 s delay before being able to issue commands again, which makes it very easy to get caught with your pants down. A reduction or even an outright removal of this delay would make the ability much more usable.
With regard to the reload, Vipper is correct:

The stat on KV-2 are probably inaccurate, KV-2 has weird reload bonus that applies in siege mode and ROF should be about equal on siege and Tank mode.

There is a 0.75 reload duration multiplier upon activating siege mode that cuts down the average reload to ~8.5 s, slightly below that of the normal shell. So you could say the crew is at least a tiny bit more focused on reload while not in their driving seats, although their aim still seems to suffer for some reason (Vodka?). At similar distance, the indirect shots have noticeably higher scatter than the normal rounds, which is somewhat strange considering the immobilized tank should have an easier time bringing the payload down range with high accuracy.

I don't quite agree to the assertion that the KV-2 is useless against anything bigger than a PzIV, though. In a head-to-head stand-off vs a Panther at 40 m it should come out on top in about 2 out of 3 confrontations. For a mainly AI-focused tank this is really good, not sure if it should be even more potent than that.

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These problem started with the "redesign" of that KV-2.

KV-2 was designed as an assault/siege tank where in siege mod it would have superior fire power.

It was meant to be weaker during transition.

The "redesign" brought closer to other heavy tanks (to the point that now some people complain that it overlaps with IS-2) and made "siege mode" very situational where in most cases it is better to use "tank mode".

Imo the issue has more to with minimum range and less with set up/hull down delay.

KV-2 used to have longer range but when the max was reduced that minim range remained the same. That means that the KV-2 in siege mode will fire in range 25-70.

I agree that the unit is a good spot and if was to change something it would be to return to its all design with a superior siege mode instead of its overlap with IS-2.

the kv-2 is really good, the gun takes a while to fire


but the only, ONLY complaint you can have on the kv-2 is that it gets punished for siege mode, but the exact same ability (hulldown) in jaeger armor does not. You get ~5 seconds of wind down time when de-sieging and iirc a large received accuracy penalty, but the hulldown ability lets tanks instantly go mobile

the kv-2 is really good, the gun takes a while to fire


but the only, ONLY complaint you can have on the kv-2 is that it gets punished for siege mode, but the exact same ability (hulldown) in jaeger armor does not. You get ~5 seconds of wind down time when de-sieging and iirc a large received accuracy penalty, but the hulldown ability lets tanks instantly go mobile

These ability are NOT "exactly the same" and actually their quite different:

Ostheer:
Name: "Hull Down"
Duration: None
Cost: Free
-25% received damage.
+25% weapon range.
Vehicle can't move.

KV-2
Name: "Firing Positions!"
Duration: Toggle Ability
Cost: Free
+30 maximum range. (+75% weapon range)
+25 minimum range.
KV-2 is immobile in siege mode.


One one is doctrinal ability taking up a slot and the other is ability always available to the specific unit.

There is no "received accuracy penalty" it has been patched out around three years ago.

The stat on KV-2 are probably inaccurate, KV-2 has weird reload bonus that applies in siege mode and ROF should be about equal on siege and Tank mode.

What I find most irritating about the siege mode is the obscenely long tear-down time. IIRC none of the other set up / hulldown abilities have a 5 s delay before being able to issue commands again, which makes it very easy to get caught with your pants down. A reduction or even an outright removal of this delay would make the ability much more usable.
With regard to the reload, Vipper is correct:



There is a 0.75 reload duration multiplier upon activating siege mode that cuts down the average reload to ~8.5 s, slightly below that of the normal shell. So you could say the crew is at least a tiny bit more focused on reload while not in their driving seats, although their aim still seems to suffer for some reason (Vodka?). At similar distance, the indirect shots have noticeably higher scatter than the normal rounds, which is somewhat strange considering the immobilized tank should have an easier time bringing the payload down range with high accuracy.

I don't quite agree to the assertion that the KV-2 is useless against anything bigger than a PzIV, though. In a head-to-head stand-off vs a Panther at 40 m it should come out on top in about 2 out of 3 confrontations. For a mainly AI-focused tank this is really good, not sure if it should be even more potent than that.

I dont know how are you guys fetching the reload speed but I got it from here: https://coh2.serealia.ca/. It says 9 reload duration for non siege mode and 10-12 for siege mode which would mean obviously the reload is slower in siege mode for some reason. This is what I based my issue on.

Regarding Kv2 vs Panther:

• Range: Panther trumps KV-2 here. Kv2 cannot even fight a panther at max range that is 50.
  
• Armor: Panther has a 73% chance of penetrating a Kv2 while Kv-2 has a 53% chance of penetrating a Panther which goes down to 49% when Panther hits vet3. So I guess in a Kv2 vs Panther fight, Panther will come out on top as you stated.
  
  Kv2 is rather a dedicated anti infantry tank but it should be able to fend off attacks from panthers. Obviously it shouldnt destroy panther in a 1v1 but atleast deal enough damage to cancel the dives.
  

I dont know how are you guys fetching the reload speed but I got it from here: https://coh2.serealia.ca/. It says 9 reload duration for non siege mode and 10-12 for siege mode which would mean obviously the reload is slower in siege mode for some reason. This is what I based my issue on.

That sight has calculated the ROF similar to other vehicles and has not factored in the 0.75 reload bonus in siege mod. If you are still skeptical you can test it in cheat mode and time it.

The modifier make little sense since they could simply apply the desired reload. It probably a left over from an earlier version of the vehicle where the two modes would probably use the same weapon.

I wouldn't worry about getting a stat wrong happens to everyone, the fact the you even bothered to check stats before posting is (or has become) admirable.

Regarding Kv2 vs Panther:

• Range: Panther trumps KV-2 here. Kv2 cannot even fight a panther at max range that is 50.
  
• Armor: Panther has a 73% chance of penetrating a Kv2 while Kv-2 has a 53% chance of penetrating a Panther which goes down to 49% when Panther hits vet3. So I guess in a Kv2 vs Panther fight, Panther will come out on top as you stated.
  
  Kv2 is rather a dedicated anti infantry tank but it should be able to fend off attacks from panthers. Obviously it shouldnt destroy panther in a 1v1 but atleast deal enough damage to cancel the dives.
  

I have to point out that:
KV-2 does 240 damage so it need 4 penetrating shot to kill a panther,while the Panther needs 7 KV-2 does 120! deflection damage so it will damage a Panther even if it does not penetrate.
KV-2 has 1040/1200 HP which is generally better than an armor bonus
KV-2 at vet 2 matches the range of Panther at 50.

I have to point out that:
KV-2 does 240 damage so it need 4 penetrating shot to kill a panther,while the Panther needs 7 KV-2 does 120! deflection damage so it will damage a Panther even if it does not penetrate.
KV-2 has 1040/1200 HP which is generally better than an armor bonus
KV-2 at vet 2 matches the range of Panther at 50.

This is a highly misleading presentation.
While your numbers are correct, for example the chance of 4 penetrating shots in a row is less than 5%, given that all shots hit in the first place which is unlikely due to the comparatively low accuracy of the KV2.

Comparing those two tanks in terms of AT makes no sense, the Panther is miles ahead, even without deflection damage.

I dont know how are you guys fetching the reload speed but I got it from here: https://coh2.serealia.ca/. It says 9 reload duration for non siege mode and 10-12 for siege mode which would mean obviously the reload is slower in siege mode for some reason. This is what I based my issue on.

The reload speed listed at serealia's site is kind of correct, as the weapon profile itself states a reload of 10 - 12 s (11 average). However, for whatever obscure reason this value gets multiplied by 0.75 upon activating siege mode, giving the ~8.5 s total mentioned before.



Why this multiplier is pretty well hidden in the siege mode ability tab and not simply changed for the weapon profile used during siege mode is a mystery to me and a good example why it is always good to second-guess any stats listed somewhere. If I hadn't tested this by accident the other day I would probably never have known...

This is a highly misleading presentation.
While your numbers are correct, for example the chance of 4 penetrating shots in a row is less than 5%, given that all shots hit in the first place which is unlikely due to the comparatively low accuracy of the KV2.

Comparing those two tanks in terms of AT makes no sense, the Panther is miles ahead, even without deflection damage.

Misleading as to what? I didn't come to any conclusion, I simply brought up more parameters one should factor in. The chance to penetrate where already included.

Is this "presentations" "highly misleading" also?
"Regarding Kv2 vs Panther:

• Range: Panther trumps KV-2 here. Kv2 cannot even fight a panther at max range that is 50.
  
• Armor: Panther has a 73% chance of penetrating a Kv2 while Kv-2 has a 53% chance of penetrating a Panther which goes down to 49% when Panther hits vet3. So I guess in a Kv2 vs Panther fight, Panther will come out on top as you stated."
  

As I have pointed out KV-2 does deflection damage and thus it need something between 4 penetrating shots and 8 deflections shots.

According to MMX calculator (if I am using correctly) the Panther vs KV-2, KV-2 wining with 78.8 probability. (Stationary, at 40 range, vet 0, scatter efficiency 100%, 5.000 repetitions)

(37.5T2K vs 66.4T2K)

This is a highly misleading presentation.
While your numbers are correct, for example the chance of 4 penetrating shots in a row is less than 5%, given that all shots hit in the first place which is unlikely due to the comparatively low accuracy of the KV2.

Comparing those two tanks in terms of AT makes no sense, the Panther is miles ahead, even without deflection damage.

I don't see the KV-2 nearly as far behind, honestly. Sure, the +10 range, higher mobility and better (moving) accuracy give the Panther the edge as long as it can kite or circle, but if you take raw damage, penetration and chance to hit only, the KV-2 is actually superior.
Placed stationary and facing each other at 40 m distance, the KV-2 will win about 66% of the time - despite lower accuracy and pen thanks to the deflection damage it deals (T2K is about 50 +/- 15 s and 55 +/- 10 s for the KV-2 and Panther to win, respectively). If deflection damage could actually kill tanks instead of just dropping them to 0 HP the difference would be even greater.

In addition, the KV-2 gets +10 range at vet 2, which is when the range advantage of the Panther vanishes and things get pretty even. Again, the Panther has the upper hand while both tanks are moving, but I'd say both tanks exchanging max range shots before dropping back into safety is a more realistic scenario, anyway. Here, the much slower reload for the KV-2 isn't that much a disadvantage and stutter-stopping for more accuracy / lower scatter is also easier to pull off.

According to MMX calculator (if I am using correctly) the Panther vs KV-2 37.5T2K 66.4T2K KV-2 wining with 78.8 probability.

I should point out that the currently online version of the spreadsheet doesn't take into account that deflection damage cannot kill vehicles (unless it can crit, like Panzerschrecks or PIATs for example). In-game, any non-penetrating hit it will just drop the HP to zero and will require a pen hit for the tank to be destroyed. I'll post an updated version soon where this is properly modeled.

I should point out that the currently online version of the spreadsheet doesn't take into account that deflection damage cannot kill vehicles (unless it can crit, like Panzerschrecks or PIATs for example). In-game, any non-penetrating hit it will just drop the HP to zero and will require a pen hit for the tank to be destroyed. I'll post an updated version soon where this is properly modeled.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Are you sure that the deflection thing applies to all weapons? I was under the impression it applied only to certain AT snare.

Yeah, tested it with all tanks that currently deal deflection damage against a target with 10k armor. Definitely confirmed. Only weapons with an option to crit with deflection damage (via on_deflected_actions) can kill.

Yeah, tested it with all tanks that currently deal deflection damage against a target with 10k armor. Definitely confirmed. Only weapons with an option to crit with deflection damage (via on_deflected_actions) can kill.

Great work man nice to know.

KV-2 should just get a barrage like the Brummbar or 105 Sherman does.

Siege mode is just badly designed

These ability are NOT "exactly the same" and actually their quite different:

Ostheer:
Name: "Hull Down"
Duration: None
Cost: Free
-25% received damage.
+25% weapon range.
Vehicle can't move.

KV-2
Name: "Firing Positions!"
Duration: Toggle Ability
Cost: Free
+30 maximum range. (+75% weapon range)
+25 minimum range.
KV-2 is immobile in siege mode.



One one is doctrinal ability taking up a slot and the other is ability always available to the specific unit.

There is no "received accuracy penalty" it has been patched out around three years ago.

Wehr """""commander slot"""" ability grants the ability on all tanks, including the ELEFANT

The hulldown has none of the drawbacks of the siege mode, except immobility (but you can immediately cancel it), it grants only buffs.
Also - the "75%" weapon range doesn't mean much when the elefant, a 70+ range TD, gets 25% larger range, which already puts it at a more or less same range as the kv-2, a pak-43 on wheels, you could say


Just because its a "commander ability" doesn't make it not strong, its not as strong, game-trivializing and bullshit as spotting scopes, but its definitely underrated

That sight has calculated the ROF similar to other vehicles and has not factored in the 0.75 reload bonus in siege mod. If you are still skeptical you can test it in cheat mode and time it.

The modifier make little sense since they could simply apply the desired reload. It probably a left over from an earlier version of the vehicle where the two modes would probably use the same weapon.

Yeah but if you read my original topic I also mentioned that it should get a reload duration reduction regardless of the siege mode. The reload duration at vet 0 and vet 3 non-siege mode are the same at 9 which seems odd to me and thats why I shared the examples of brummbar, scott, stug 3.

Misleading as to what? I didn't come to any conclusion, I simply brought up more parameters one should factor in. The chance to penetrate where already included.

Is this "presentations" "highly misleading" also?
"Regarding Kv2 vs Panther:

I dont believe my points could be misleading since what I have shared are straight facts. I have not made any statement from my personal opinion. Kv2 4 shotting a panther is a statement since most of the time it will not be true and this statement is based on probability to be true whereas 73% pen of panther is a fact.

The reload speed listed at serealia's site is kind of correct, as the weapon profile itself states a reload of 10 - 12 s (11 average). However, for whatever obscure reason this value gets multiplied by 0.75 upon activating siege mode, giving the ~8.5 s total mentioned before.

Yeah as I said above, the reload duration should decrease with vet regardless of the siege mode. I get that it receives a minor buff in reload duration in siege mode but it should also receive a reload duration reduction as it vets up to vet 3 in tank mode too. Currently, its set at 9 for vet 0 as well as vet 3. Brummbar, scott, mobile arty, static arty, scotts all receive reload duration reduction with vet so I believe there is no reason for Kv2 to be left out.