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Thread: The Great OKW commander balancing22 Dec 2019, 20:57 PM Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 20:46 PMT.R. Stormjäger If your attitude of "units aren't worth building unless they're virtually uncounterable" is representative of the community at large, no wonder we're drowning in heavy tanks. Pretty much everything on your list is a consequence of not supporting your vehicles. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: The Great OKW commander balancing22 Dec 2019, 20:41 PM Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 20:37 PMVipper And that bring it back to the point that the rest of the OKW can not inflict enough bleed especially to the & men conscripts so they have to relay on the Tiger to do both. Deal with IS-2 and inflict bleed to other targets. If you remove heavies from the equation, OKW's fine at lategame AI. It's got a solid stock premium medium. If the opponent goes for a tank destroyer to counter it, they've invested resources and popcap into a unit that does next to no anti-infantry damage. The problem with heavies is they counter mediums without giving up anti-infantry firepower, and thus push mediums out of the game in the same way mediums push out lights. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: The Great OKW commander balancing22 Dec 2019, 20:34 PM Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 20:26 PMVipper According to the "correct" stat C.Panther is at least as good (if not better) as Tiger with dealing IS-2 yet it was not picked a single time and that is an indication that current problem in the OKW Soviet match up is not simply the IS-2. The Command Panther wasn't picked for the same reason the stock Panther wasn't picked. Neither vehicle is going to be able to kill the IS-2 because it'll be supported. Both are able to to hold it back. Faced with a choice between the two, are you going to pick the tank that can keep up with the IS-2 in manpower bleed or the one that can't? In: COH2 Balance
Thread: The Great OKW commander balancing22 Dec 2019, 20:19 PM Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 20:05 PMJae For Jett I didnt say the panther cant deal with the is2, just that its not its ideal use case. That's not what I was asking. The Panther, in both factions in which it appears, is the best nondoctrinal anti-heavy unit. If the Panther isn't ideal against heavies, then what is? Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 20:05 PMJae For Jett Also, the assertion about forcing a heavy meta isnt true. A sniper is the only real counter to a sniper, and yet we're not in a sniper meta. This is because snipers are not universally a good investment to begin with. Almost everything can kill the sniper if it gets out of position. Heavy tanks demand relatively rare high penetration guns to counter, which you only find on big tank destroyers and the other heavies. Heavies provide a potent anti-infantry advantage over nondoctrinal TDs (including the Panther) for a relatively small additional cost, so it's not hard to see why they're such common picks right now. You get anti-tank infantry power on par with your weight in mediums, anti-tank firepower equivalent to a medium tank destroyer, and armour that medium tanks can't penetrate. Faced with that, it's difficult to make an argument for mixed medium builds. The heavy is better than the medium right now in every respect except timing, and the timing gap is too small to make up for it. Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 20:05 PMJae For Jett Finally, also confirming (again, pending final approval) that IS2 armor is being lowered so that these other vehicles CAN stand a better change against it. By how much? If it's still over 300, it's still going to be a problem. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: The Great OKW commander balancing22 Dec 2019, 19:55 PM Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 19:42 PMJae For Jett This isnt the panthers ideal matchup or use case. But the StuG, JPIV and Puma can't deal with it either. So what should? If the best counter to a heavy is another heavy, the heavy tank meta persists. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: The Great OKW commander balancing22 Dec 2019, 18:58 PM Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 18:40 PMSander93 And that's just the initial implementation. It'd be mostly a complete guess what the costs of such tech would be per heavy and it'd surely have to be adjusted afterwards, which would then probably take another period of 3-6 months to get right. Maybe it would've been better to use a sidetech system instead of the hybrid system, maybe it wouldn't have been. We'll probably never know as right now I'm afraid it's too late to change it. What about jacking up the prices on heavies? That'd have a similar effect, except it'd be paid on every call-in rather than just the first. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: The Great OKW commander balancing22 Dec 2019, 17:19 PM Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 16:49 PMSander93 That's how I remember Blitzkrieg mod did it in its vCoH overhaul, and that was my personal originally proposed and preferred option too as it would've allowed to finetune heavies' arrival individually and down to the second, but ultimately the CP/tech hybrid was put in place and we'll have to try to make the best of that with some minor adjustments. Switching to a sidetech system at this point would be a lot of work in itself and it'd basically mean we'd have to start over from the beginning. Is sticking a sidetech on the HQ building that complex to implement? In: COH2 Balance
Thread: The Great OKW commander balancing22 Dec 2019, 16:26 PM Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 15:37 PMSander93 In my opinion, it's the IS-2's needlessly high armor that's causing problems, and which is effectively forcing OKW and Ostheer into Tiger Is as that unit is the only reliable counter (with the Panther being okay, but only until the IS-2 hits vet 2 and Ostheer can not transition into T4 that easily in 1v1). If we'd lower the IS-2s armor, units like the StuG, JP4, Panther and ATGs and Shrecks will have an easier time dealing with it, which should hopefully mean that Grand Offensive will no longer be the only viable choice OKW has against Soviets. Along with some minor adjustments to the Tiger I's (and all heavies') timing, we should see a decrease in GO picks after that. OKW has plenty of good commanders, but I think players simply didn't want to risk picking them in a tourney where the strong Soviet late game dominated with a 10k doller pricepool on the line. That's the crux of it, yeah: you're not going to risk going for anything but the heavy in case the opponent goes for the heavy. In automatch you might because it doesn't matter if you win, but a tournament? Heavy every time. On the timing issue, what do you think of switching from CPs to an AEC-like sidetech instead? That shouldn't be much of an impediment in resource-rich teamgames, but should blunt the heavy rush in 1v1. Heavies at the moment are a bit like putting the Luchs and the Panzer IV in the same tech building: the timing gap is too small to justify the Luchs. They play like Tier 5 vehicles now, so putting a teching barrier in front of them relative to mediums could help a lot. If stalling for a heavy is advantageous over building mediums (as it is now), that's what's going to keep happening. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Is it wrong to ask for lmg upgrades for PG's22 Dec 2019, 16:09 PM Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 15:28 PMZeroZeroNi Go test it out. Penals beat every one they used to crush pre-patch sections from long and also beat riflemen from close. Basically the both the highest dps units for the their range gets rekt by them. I'm not sure what the point in pitting Penals against Sections is given those factions never face each other, but I ran some tests on Rifles versus Grens. In a 30 range full cover shootout with the base squad, the score was 4:4 Grens:Riflemen. In a 30 range full cover shootout with one weapon upgrade (LMG42 vs BAR) the score was 8:0 Grens:Riflemen. In a 30 range full cover shootout with equal models (4 Riflemen vs 4 Grenadiers) the score was 8:0 Grens:Riflemen. That suggests to me that Grenadiers are carry infantry like Panzerfusiliers: they're really not that good early on. However, once they get their weapon upgrades and veterancy they punch above their weight at their preferred ranges. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: Is it wrong to ask for lmg upgrades for PG's22 Dec 2019, 15:23 PM Jump back to quoted post22 Dec 2019, 15:05 PMZeroZeroNi Penals beat every starting infantry at every range. They beat 4 man sections(with cover it's 50/50) at long and also beat riflemen from short. Riflemen, Penals, Ranges, Paras, AirBorn Gaurds and anything with g43's have more than 50% accuracy or shorter cooldowns while moving so they are still good at charging in even if they are out of position. So before you comment know your information proper. What is your source for these claims? In: COH2 Gameplay