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Thread: Conscripts--a la carte 8 Sep 2019, 15:51 PM Jump back to quoted post8 Sep 2019, 13:55 PMStug life actually remove all of that, the orrah buff might just fix cons, give it 20% RA during it and 30% CD reduction during it and they become good They had a buff attached to oorah in the beta but it was Removed iirc. Personally I'd have it scale with vet and buff and take the role of a weapon upgrade. Instead of being constant it's as needed. Jump back to quoted post8 Sep 2019, 13:56 PMKatitof Can we have the Stalingrad movie memes die already? Its not about the meme it's about finding a way for cons to fit in. Which they don't. I want them to be cheaper so they can always find a home in any build but still have them balanced in that regard. Soviet shouldn't be struggling for map control early game but holding it and plentiful but ineffective infantry is a good way to represent that. Furthermore like it or not there is a certain degree of "meme" in this game. Things like live cons unable to actually do anything at all, without even the benifit of being cheap. I asume you are referring to the rifle thing, that could easily be swapped with a lower accuracy model that has the dps of 4 men and the upgrade could be better rifles of it insults you so. The idea is lowering performance to match price so that they can actually find a home in a build as support. The means matters not me. Hell if anything this design is LESS memey than live because you actually get the chance to turn them into more than just bodies to die if you so choose In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Conscripts--a la carte 8 Sep 2019, 13:50 PM Hi all I know I throw this idea out now and again but with a new patch shaking up this and that I'd like to resubmit it for discussion The idea: cons cost little and bring little more than capping power You pay for additional bits and bobs to make them more what you need, at an additional cost. Not too unlike the PE of cohf As always, the primary goal is discussion. Nothing here is set in stone, I'd like to hear what yall have to say The basic template: 200mp 6 men, 4 rifles Sandbags Merge Oorah becomes vet 1 Various upgrades Molitov AT nade Rifle production (+2 rifles, increased ROF on rifles) 7th man Cover bonus Oorah buff (defense modifier for squad? Increased vet rate Reduced ability cost Reduced reinforcement rate Other suggestions welcome The idea is that you can pay little for extra capping power of that's all you want. But if you want more from your cons you can get more. At the start for 30mp more you have the firepower of the new combat engies with 50%more health. But most importantly you have the ability to out produce the enemy for map control at the cost of quality of troops. Base price I think for upgrades would be ~ 80mp and 10 fuel. Exact location in tech structures to be determined. The beauty of breaking up cons into an a la carte model is that they become as much or as little as you want them to be. At 200mp they could always find a spot in your build as something to merge here or there or additional capping power without being a no Brainer. Another benifit of the a la carte model is that you can easily tweak each aspect of the cons. Even now it's difficult finding the right spot for the current 7 man ability as it brings a lot to the table, but broken up it can be easier to fit in and price as each component is independent. If the 7th model is generating too much value too soon move it back a tier. If the extra rifles is too strong, increase the price. Additionally with all these various different elements we can get creative with pricing. Say rifle production doesn't feel right being a weapon improvement and costing fuel, make it cost munitions. Something like 100mu and 80mp or you could also tie it to a tier. Build special rifle, get more and better guns! Unlock support weapon building and get the cover bonus or something. The world is your oyster! Tldr make cons cheap enough to always have a place in build but modular enough to fit in however you want them to, at a price In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Shrecks. Blobbing in 2v2s and above8 Sep 2019, 12:49 PM Jump back to quoted post8 Sep 2019, 12:24 PMShadowLinkX37 You never played 1v1 vs soviets when they were OP then. 90% of top players thought demos were OP. I haven't heard a single top player complain about schreck blobs recently. The maxim is not THAT bad. It's semi decent when you use sustained fire vs blobs. It's bad vs spaced squads. I still don't see why demos should get any sort of buff. They can still 1 shot any squad when they're on garrisons. Axis factions don't get that luxury, and only the soviets can do it nondoc. If the arguement is that top players don't use free squad wipe tools because they're situational or lazy it doesn't seem like they should be buffed. If that were the case, "booby traps" should all be buffed because they're rarely used as well. The maxim IS that bad. So bad that the entire tier including an AT gun with a barrage and an mortar with vet free recon gets bypassed. And I suggested a change to the demo, not a flat buff. As I said cap the models at 3.it no longer wipes then, just causes bleed. You wouldn't want to sink all kinds of MU into just bleeding 1 squad, you would want it to bleed a blob. I don't want it changed because it's rarely used I want it changed so it's not garbage and do its part to prevent blobbing. (again, on 1 squad without a wipe it would be a waste, ON multiple it would be worth while) Furthermore how is being able to blow wipe a unit in a garrison OK instantly but not in the field? If 1 isn't OK neither is the other. I basicly want a reliability buff. I want the big boomer treatment the other problematic wipe units like the isu and is-2 got where it trades cheesy wipes for reliability. I don't want it to be a game winner by itself bit I want the Soviet to have some sort of blob punishment before the Katy hits as well. Is there a good reason why capping models at 3 would be OP but allowing it to continue to wipe isn't? Also ahem teller mine? Where did my light tank go? In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Auber Soldiers : give out a machine four STG.44 red sight8 Sep 2019, 12:41 PM Jump back to quoted post8 Sep 2019, 12:25 PMVipper Read the test again. There is difference between wining close combat and simply walking strait at the enemy not even using smoke grenade and wining the engagement vs one of the best (if not the best) mid to close range unit that require a doctrine, weapon upgrade, tech and arrives later. I hear ya. But that's shocks design. They lack long range dps and instead have armour to close. It's intended. Entirely. You pay more on Obers for their versatility. You are paying to ignore cover, to engage at all ranges, you are paying to booby trap points you are paying to clear garrisons with their hand nuke. Eventually you can throw smoke that will entirely prevent shocks from closing or Supress them if you chose. You are paying more and getting ALOT more. Shocks you are paying for durability. You are most notedly NOT paying for versatility. They do one thing and do it well. Get up in the enemies guts and bayonet the shit out of them. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Auber Soldiers : give out a machine four STG.44 red sight8 Sep 2019, 12:13 PM If stgs can immediately provide a reliable counter to shocks then it removes shock from the game. Shocks entire shtick is to close to a range they can do damage and require more than infantry to control them. That's literally their job so saying they are op for that seems unreasonable to say the least. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: USA September patch discussion8 Sep 2019, 12:06 PM Jump back to quoted post8 Sep 2019, 06:27 AMMazianni Firstly, these are the autoattack values. You... deliberately, most likely, left out the barrage values. Furthermore, why not take a look at the AOE distance values? Oh, right, it doesn't fit the "USF OP" narrative, where poor, poor Ostheer gets beaten at any range by any equivalent USF unit, and Ostheer uniquely suffers from the IDF nerfs because MG spam is totally a strategy employed by literally any other faction. Everyone here has moved on; you're the only one who cannot seem to accept the fact that the USF mortar is worse than the Ostheer one. The very mention of it seems to trigger a kneejerk response by you. You specifically said the autofire is a write off so the compared the auto fires... In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Shrecks. Blobbing in 2v2s and above7 Sep 2019, 23:03 PM Jump back to quoted post7 Sep 2019, 22:51 PMShadowLinkX37 Idk I never really had a problem with schreck blobs so long as you don't drive your tanks into them. MGs and infantry with AI upgrades ruin schreck blobs. I think it's probably a bit on the rant side, but wanting the return of instawipe mines and demos is concerning :/ what if you are playing a faction that lacks both an mg and weapon upgrades? side note, the demo SHOULD get a relook. capping model deaths at say 3 instead of self spotting would be a better method to reduce their potency and not neuter the only soviet antiblob this side of t4 because the thing about blobs is... theres only 1 place to actually look, so spotting a demo is pretty easy and if the only inflict bleed and not wipe then it aint as cheesy... In: COH2 Balance
Thread: USA September patch discussion7 Sep 2019, 21:53 PM Jump back to quoted post7 Sep 2019, 19:47 PMMr.Flush Micro is not an issue. Winning is. If you go USF mortar vs a equally skilled ostheer player you will get your ass handed to you. This is not in 1v1's, this is 3's,4's and sometimes 2's. I did not even mention the other builds which will push you in your base if you try to open with the Usf mortar. If you play casually you may do whatever the fuk you want. Smoke works when you have grenades unlocked. You cannot have a mortar and nades teched without being overpowered by multiple squads. i play mainly team games and can say that the mortar is a great help. in team games controlling the field is key, ost likes their mgs. if you can make it so their mg isnt doing anything you are taking away their greatest early game strength. if you dont see ass grens in their lineup i find a mortar to be a great investment as it takes away their tool to equalize the rifle/ gren matchup. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: The State of Conscript Assault Package in the current game.7 Sep 2019, 18:53 PM Jump back to quoted post7 Sep 2019, 18:09 PMdistrofio Let us disagree. i wouldnt ride the maxim meme so hard, it can suppress 1 squad frontally without problems, the new vet ability does help too. we have different results then when we use the maxims. it might stop something like sturms headed straight for it right down the middle, but it doesnt deal suppression fast enough that either squad should actually get suppressed. it would off a burst to reveal itslef then give enough time before the 8tyh burst it requires to suppress for the squads to peel off on wither side of its arc. this isnt an mg42 where a burst makes them eat dirt, it requires multiple seconds of shooting to apply enough suppression to actually do anything. also i dont think its fair to add vet into this equation. if the ability was vet 0 like it should be mayne, but even then dont forget it requires a reload while the crew lets the enemy know its there. an intelligent player would not mix the sturmpios and volks, thats granted, but an intelligent SU would also build sandbags with cons, merge and to say the least scout for the maxim. Its hard to flank a well placed sandbag, cons under cover can be dangerous enough for a very expensive troop like sturmpios to inflict serious MP bleed. now we are talking about a prepared defense. want to add in mine on the flanks too? and what is going to cause the bleed? cons? if cons could cause bleed we wouldnt even need to factor the maxim into this because as is you would be far better with 2 cons than a con and a maxim... if we are at a stage where players are bunkering down but sturms are still on the front i think its plenty safe to assume that flame nades are in play in this scenario... if you scout an upcoming flank, you are always free to reposition and turn the soft defeat into a possible turnaround. absolutely you are, if you spot an enemy headed anywhere towards your maxim your best bet IS to turn around and run away because cons wont be able to fight off either the sturms or the volks alone and you dont want to give the enemy 5 free fuel now do you? thats part of the problem. as support cons cant do anything. the maxim being unable to do anything combined with cons not being able to do anything is EXACTLY why we have penals as is and t2 being deader than a maxim when frontally charged by a volks squad. there is no teeth in a t2 build. there is nothing to stop the enemy or make them not want to close its just unfair to 'include' T2 cost to begin with. You either build T1 or T2 to advance as SU, the difference is the units you make up with. Conveniently OKM has no T1 for volks and sturmpios, but when the discussion is between grens and cons, no one, i repeat, NO ONE, considers OST T1 into the mix. ive always taken the 80mp into account when discussing grens. when it was just EFA i always allocated the weapon upgrade scaling to grens being slightly more to get them, but regardless against okw the 160mp in MANDATORY teching cost is plenty valid. thats 160mp. its no small amount and the cost is not compensated anywhere to accommodate it in the opening minutes. this is a big part of the problem with the live okw/soviet matchup. soviet has shit units AND 160mp to dump into getting other units while okw has great units AND bonus mp so they can start building those good units asap. but on the topic of the comparison between grens and cons, notice that the maxim and cons (with teching) actually costs 80mp MORE than grens/mg42, without even picking apart that grens also come with a fuast? which would you pick given the chance? it in part goes to show how messed the soviet are when you consider that comparison... units cost the same and teching is higher but aside from durability are absolutely inferior anyways thats 160mp you are paying, thats 2/3 the cost of another con squad or almost the entitrey of a CE squad that would otherwise be on the front (to add insult to injury, while you are paying the 160mp for the tech you are also not capping with your CE, meaning paying more and getting less in terms of units AND map control) and thats 160mp that is takn into account when discussing penals ALWAYS and should here too If we remove T1 cost, we end with 260+240 = soviets500 vs okw550 = 300+250 wich is fair in terms of possible results but we shouldnt remove the tech cost because in the opening moments all mp counts and shelling out 160mp for a trash tier mg that cant actually do its job is a very important distinction. if the +10mp cost on volks is whats going to stop them from being super strong surely the 16x that into unlocking the maxim should count in the equation no? we agree with the lavanade impact, but maxims in garrison are durable enough to withstand a single lavanade withouth dying, either replace it with another maxim or soft retreat it not if were are playing with the scenario of sturms and volks vs cons and maxims. its 1 click and the maxim is running home (to wait for a 250mp medic upgrade) or its being deathlooped to leave the cons fighting alone. many of the problems with okw balance lies in the massively powerful post release handouts they received. stgs and flame nades to be specific. id pay 15mp (25 for preview price) more on cons to get a BAR and long range molitovs that actually throw when you click them In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Soviet September patch discussion7 Sep 2019, 18:09 PM Jump back to quoted post7 Sep 2019, 15:57 PMdistrofio Nerf penals then! I had never got such a simple answer The tricky thing about that tho is it would have to coinside with a con buff and judging by how late the 7th man is slated to come out compared to LITERALLY all other weapon upgrades it's pretty clear that cons are not supposed to be a viable unit. You could probably put cons in t3/4 and throw the upgrade in there and there would be no change from them being in T0. Their placement is misleading I think. They are NOT t0 infantry they are supposed to be late game infantry only viable when elite infantry hits the field and not a second before. At least that's what all conscript design directions to date lead me to believe. In: COH2 Balance