last part is false you really need to be knuckle head to lose a medium tank to a single puma. 2 will do the job but the jp 4 and p4 does it way better for cost. and as you say its similar priced to other lv's. then compare the puma to the 222 and the aec who can counter vehicles that are more expensive then they themselves are
The Puma has 50 range and out-ranges every allied vehicle except for the Comet, Pershing, and allied TDs. It also has higher penetration than a Panzer IV and can outrun a Cromwell. You can kill any enemy medium tank with a Puma simply by kiting it.
The AEC, in comparison, has the roughly the same main gun as the Puma, barring its inferior range (40) and penetration (it does have better scatter/AOE). The AEC also has a better MG and costs 40 manpower and 10 fuel less than the Puma. This price ignores the 150 manpower and 15 fuel teching cost required to unlock the AEC.
I rather doubt that the AEC "can counter vehicles that are more expensive then they themselves are" much better than the Puma. |
However, there's no denying that UKF Tank Commander & Emergency Warspeed are a bit over-the-top.
Emergency Warspeed should function like the Ostheer version:
- Lighter tanks get better version of the ability than heavier tanks
- This is why the OST Panther seems balanced, whereas the OKW Panther turns into a race-car (OKW Combat Blitz behaves like an Emergency Warspeed on steroids)
- I have no opinion about the availability (small munition cost? require the engineers to repair longer to activate?)
Regarding Tank Commander, the bonuses are also too much. The cost is so incredibly tiny too, that it makes the upgrade a no-brainer.
- Veterancy-gain should probably gtfo
- Detection radius should be moved to the AEC. The UC is a terrible sniper hunter. This doesn't mean that the Cromwell fleet should detect invisible units though. Better give it to a dedicated unit.
- The ability should retain its Accuracy bonus (so that it remains reasonable to upgrade all tanks (including Fireflies)
- The LOS bonus is questionably high, and could go down. Currently it gives Cromwells/Comets the same sight-range as Volksgrenadiers (not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing)
Now, regarding the fact that Brit tanks have no pintle MG. Think about it. Does pintle MG help USF, when:
- Panzerschreck range equals MG range? (do you want to spend all your time repairing?)
- We have Pak-walls
Reducing the benefits of a no-brainer upgrade until it fits the cost doesn't stop it from being a no-brainer upgrade. I'd suggest keeping the current sight and accuracy bonuses while increasing the cost to 40/45 munitions. This makes upgrading an actual choice while keeping the incentive to upgrade a Firefly, which doesn't have trouble hitting tanks at any range (0.08/0.07/0.05 N/M/F accuracy).
Losing the detection and veterancy bonuses is for the best; detection diluted unit roles and the veterancy bonus simply isn't needed by UKF tanks (with the possible exception of the Comet).
Your suggestions for Emergency Warspeed seem reasonable. 
ukf have mortar pits, bofor barage, 2 free howies witch with some commanders counter all non veichle based arty, and can even shoot in the FOW and be buffed buy the anvil specialization. i would take this over the pwerfer or stuka any day.
tell me would you rather have the mg or the buffs that the tank commader gives? i think all of us would pick the tank commander.
thing is that ukf does everything other armies do but it does it better.
double brens, double pitas, best healing in the game, 5 man upgrade, repair unit high dps for low cost witch can take two brens and an lmg with anvil, can destroy cover, a sinper that can couter the 222, an at gun that has more accuracy then other at guns, has fast and cheap teching, best medium tank in the game for its price, best tank destroyer (+tulips), best repairs in game, a pak 43 copy with brace witch can pen world objects with its special shot and spot for its self with units inside or when near the retreat point, a retreat point where you can take wepons and upgrade it to a repair station with a commnader and it can drop arty, best offmaps in the game etc.. the list goes on and on. this shows that if brits lack one thing like a snare on the main inf they make it up with 3 more things.
the point is these two abilites are the same but one is soooooo muche better that its op while the other is usless.
"ukf does everything other armies do but it does it better" is perhaps not the most considered opinion on the faction. While you have identified several balance issues with UKF (Sappers, Cromwell price, Bofors barrage, Heavy Engineers, PIATs), most of your list is composed of non-issues (Forward Assembly, 5-man upgrade, 6-Pounder accuracy bonus against light vehicles, cheap tech, dual-Brens) or a misunderstanding of unit stats or the faction (Firefly, Sniper, 17-Pounder, 'free' 25-Pounders). |
A cost increase for the UKF tank commander is needed (40-50 munitions?) but I don't think a buff to the OKW one would go amiss. Increasing the LOS bonus to 10 would be good, as would a cost reduction to the artillery.
Brits are the value faction for sure. I cant understand why they are not higher in win ratio rankings. Axis tanks have to upgrade to mg in order to compete with AI of vanilla brit tanks. So you cant even get commander AND mg like brits can.
The problem with current UKF (and most new factions) is that their crutch units and abilities cover up weaknesses in the faction. Unless the crutches are completely OP (which UKF's generally aren't in 1v1), it's unlikely that the faction will have the top win-rate. |
Never said it wasn't working as intended. Though that grenade sticking to the Panther was a bit odd, never seen that one happen before.
If you were interested in how it works, Comet auto-grenades have 35 penetration and a 25% chance of causing crew shock on deflection. Here are the chances against some common targets:
| Tank | Deflection Chance | Crew Shock Chance | | Panzer IV | 80.56% | 20.14% | | Vet 2/OKW Panzer IV | 85.04% | 21.26% | | Panther | 89.06% | 22.27% | | Tiger | 88.33% | 22.08% | | King Tiger | 90.67% | 22.67% |
As you can see, it's quite reliant on RNG (including landing the grenade in the first place). I'd favour removing it and improving the Comet's veterancy. |
Just how large are the chances for 300 armour to bounce a gazillion what, 150-200 pen shots? Marginal, its freak RNG par excellence and quite meaningless.
Let's have a look!
The Tiger Ace deflected seven (by my count) shots from guns with penetration 200/190/180. Since both guns were quite close, I'll use 200 penetration. This gives a chance to penetrate of 0.66.
By binomial probability:
Probability of bouncing 7/7 shots: (7!/7!(7-7)!)*(0.66)^0*(0.33)^7 = 0.33^7 = 0.000426, which is roughly one in 2500. Clearly, an extremely rare occurrence.
While we're here, what are the average number of shots to kill late-game generalists?
For the Tiger Ace:
1280 health gives eight penetrating shots to kill and the penetration chance of a point-blank AT gun is 0.66. Dividing the number of shots to kill by the chance of penetration gives ~12.12, which corresponds to an expected effective health against AT guns of 1939.39 (for comparison, the Schwerer Panzer Headquarters has only 1920 health). The standard Tiger is expected to require ~9.85 shots to kill with an expected effective health against AT guns of ~1575.76.
We can do the same comparison for the 800 health, 290 armour Comet and Pershing:
200/290 gives a chance to penetrate of ~0.6897. This gives an effective health of 1160 against AT guns and are expected to require 7.25 shots to kill.
Again, for the 1040 health, 375 armour IS-2:
200/375 gives a chance to penetrate of ~0.5333. This gives an effective health of 1950 against AT guns and is expected to require 12.1875 shots to kill.
Finally, for the 1280 health, 375 armour King Tiger:
200/375 gives a chance to penetrate of ~0.5333. This gives an effective health of 2400 against AT guns and is expected to require 15 shots to kill. |
Yeah the real problem si the mortar pit, not really the Bofors imo.
Excellent range, excellent RoF, no fuel cost etc.
A simple way to balance that thing would be remove the brace on mortar pit maybe ?
Not an optimal balance i guess, but at least it's simple.
The problem with this is that you've nerfed the Mortar Pit's survivability (which isn't all that impressive) to make the Bofors easier to counter.
The main problem with the Bofors/Mortar Pit combo is that it allows a player to reap all of the benefits of a combined-arms strategy without any of the micro usually associated with one.
To fix this, I suggest:
- Give UKF a mobile mortar with the same stats as the Soviet one (but only four infantry models)
- Make the Mortar Pit a garrisonable structure (capable of garrisoning two squads at once) that multiplies the range of mortar barrages (not auto-fire, only the barrage) by 1.5, barrage cooldown by 0.6 and scatter by 0.8 (so a garrisoned mortar has only standard auto-fire range but can barrage at the normal range)
- Reduce the cost/pop cost of the Mortar Emplacement
If you would like to try this out, here's a mod. |
Wehrmacht:
Pioneer Squad:
Vet0: 6.4
Vet2: 10.4
OKW
Sturmpioneer:
Vet0: 12
Vet0+Support Package: 16
Vet2: 16
Vet2+Support Package: 20
Mechanized Regiment HQ Repair team:
4 repair guys: 9
USF
Rear Echelon Squad:
Vet0: 8
Vet2: 12
Vet3: 15 (extra squad member)
Vehicle Crew
Vet0: 6.4
Vet2: 10
Assault Engineers:
Vet0: 6.4
Vet2: 10.4
SU
Engineer Squad:
Vet0: 6.4
Vet2: 10.4
Conscripts
Repair Kit: 6.36
Repair Station
4 repair guys: 9
UKF
Royal Engineers
Vet0 (4men): 8
Vet0 (5 men): 10
Vet2 (4 men): 12
Vet 2 (5 men): 15
Heavy Engineers:
Vet0 (4men): 16
Vet0 (5 men): 20
Vet2 (4 men): 20
Vet 2 (5 men): 25
Building on this:
- Make minesweepers actually take up a weapon slot
- Starting repair speed of Sturmpioneers reduced from 3 to 1.6
- Starting repair speed of Rear Echelons reduced from 2 to 1.2
- Starting repair speed of Royal Engineers reduced from 2 to 1.2
- SU and Ostheer Minesweepers now add a repair bonus of 1.15
- Rear Echelon Minesweepers now add a repair bonus of 0.8 (since you can equip a weapon with it)
- Sturmpioneer Minesweepers now add a repair bonus of 1.15, are exclusive with the Flamethrower and Panzerschreck upgrades
- Royal Engineer minesweepers now add a repair bonus of 0.8 (since you can equip a weapon with it)
- Repair speed bonus of Heavy Engineers reduced from 2 to (1 or 0, depending on Churchill/Heavy Engineer suggestion below)
Churchill/Heavy Engineer Suggestion
- Churchill health and armour (F/R) from 1400 and 240/180 to 1040 and 320/140 (more durable against infantry AT, and more rewarding to flank)
- Churchill pop cost from 18 to 16 (Just the Anvil Churchill)
- Churchill cost from 540/180 to 500/170 (Just the Anvil Churchill)
- Heavy Engineer upgrade no longer adds a Vickers K (long-ranged MG on a short-ranged squad?)
- Heavy Engineers no longer have a speed penalty in combat
- Heavy Engineer upgrade cost reduced from 70 to 50
Assuming all of this is implemented:
Wehrmacht:
Pioneer Squad:
Vet0: 6.4
Vet0 + Minesweeper: 11
Vet2: 10.4
Vet02 + Minesweeper: 15
OKW
Sturmpioneer:
Vet0: 6.4
Vet0+Support Package: 11
Vet2: 10.4
Vet2+Support Package: 15
Mechanized Regiment HQ Repair team:
4 repair guys: 9
USF
Rear Echelon Squad:
Vet0: 4.8
Vet0 + Minesweeper: 8
Vet2: 8.8
Vet2 + Minesweeper: 12
Vet3: 11 (extra squad member)
Vet3 + Minesweeper: 15
Vehicle Crew
Vet0: 6.4
Vet2: 10
Assault Engineers:
Vet0: 6.4
Vet2: 10.4
SU
Engineer Squad:
Vet0: 6.4
Vet0 + Minesweeper: 11
Vet2: 10.4
Vet02 + Minesweeper: 15
Conscripts
Repair Kit: 6.36
Repair Station
4 repair guys: 9
UKF
Royal Engineers
Vet0 (4men): 4.8
Vet0 (5 men): 6
Vet0 + Minesweeper (4men): 8
Vet0 + Minesweeper (5men): 10
Vet2 (4 men): 8.8
Vet 2 (5 men): 11
Vet2 + Minesweeper (4men): 12
Vet2 + Minesweeper (5men): 15
Heavy Engineers (without Churchill rework):
Vet0 (4men): 8.8
Vet0 (5 men): 11
Vet0 + Minesweeper (4men): 12
Vet0 + Minesweeper (5men): 15
Vet2 (4 men): 12.8
Vet 2 (5 men): 16
Vet2 + Minesweeper (4men): 16
Vet2 + Minesweeper (5men): 20
What do you think? |
1)churchill with 105-135 penetration, 1280 hp and 320 armor will reliably beat a panther one on one. However, if the penetration was lowered to 80-120 then the panther will win. Durability and HP are more important for the churchill so I nerf the pen instead. The new churchill will still reliably beat the panzer4.
similar case with the cromwell. I prefer the cromwell to keep its small size in exchange for lower penetration. As you said the cromwell can flank to get around a lower penetration, and the small size help it survive against the axis late game. the 23 size cromwell and sherman are just too easy to kill. I doubt a size 20 cromwell will fare much better.
I'm mostly concerned about the long-range penetration. Taking the T34/76's penetration profile instead of the Panzer IV's (100/110/120) means that the Cromwell and Churchill are only good in a flank, which isn't always possible.
2) the scoped lee enfield is nice to look at, I don't think it's worth the problem of keeping the look.
Your solution would need to make "exception" for every pick up weapon in the entire game. It's not enough to just account for the british pick up weapon. There's also an additional fact that every tommies except for the gunner will be using a scoped lee enfield at vet3. That's just gawky.
If you have a look at that part of the solution, you'll realise I was over-thinking it. Instead of a list of exceptions, you just require a model be using the Tommy Lee-Enfield for the change_weapon action.
I'd prefer to keep the SLEs as a flavour mechanic. Homogenising the factions is only good if the issue affects gameplay.
3)the tommy doesn't need the same percentage increase in dps as the grenadier. The tommies are probably the most durable squad once they've gotten their fifth man. The grenadier are well known to be fragile. The tommies are the stonewall to the grenadier's glass cannon.
Fair point. |
made a small mod with the changes I purposed.
also included an addition to the mortar emplacement, it will now respond to the artillery flare from infantry section and sniper. this means the mortar emplacement can still be useful outside of its barrage range.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=692260338
Your changes to the Mortar Pit are interesting and I like the Bofors nerf and Churchill health/armour rebalance but I'm not a fan of several of your other changes.
The penetration changes for the Churchill and Cromwell aren't necessary. Reducing their penetration (to T34/76 levels) by 15-25 reduces their scaling significantly. It's especially egregious on the Churchill as the Cromwell can, at least, flank. Against the Panzer IV, this becomes a 8.33-13.89% decrease in their ability to penetrate its frontal armour (which was already a 75% chance in the best possible conditions). In addition, the USF Sherman has exactly the same penetration and costs the same amount as the Cromwell.
The fix to Tommy vet 3 is simply uninteresting. I'd prefer another solution.
The weapon rack change doesn't address the big picture. Tommies already receive worse veterancy and a worse LMG. They need both Brens to have the same percentage scaling as an LMG42 Grenadier squad, especially with veterancy.
On emplacements, balance and mods:
Here's the mod.
Changes:
- Mortar Pit armour reduced from 5 to 1
- Mortar Pit weapons removed
- Mortar Pit target priority reduced from 0 to -20
- Mortar Pit garrisonable slots increased from 6/1 to 8/2
- Mortar Pit cost reduced from 400 manpower to 120 manpower
- Mortars garrisoned in the Mortar Pit have 20% reduced scatter
- UKF and Soviet mortars garrisoned in the Mortar Pit have the range and cooldown time of their barrages multiplied by 1.5 and 0.6 respectively
- 3-Inch Mortar squad added to UKF T2 (copy of the Soviet mortar)
- 3-Inch Mortar squad now uses the Recon Tommy icon in the building menu
- Sappers moved from T2 to T1
- Brace armour bonus reduced from 5 to 0
- Bofors damage reduced from 30 to 20
- Bofors barrage range changed from 40/80 to 20/50
- Bofors range changed from 0/45 to 10/45
- Bofors health reduced from 1000 to 640
- Bofors armour increased from 5 to 30
- Bofors N/M/F accuracy changed from 0.775/0.46/0.36 to 0.56/0.46/0.36
- Bofors now has half accuracy against retreating squads
- Bofors attack ground ability removed
- Bofors cost increased from 280/30 to 340/45
I haven't got around to the 17-Pounder yet. |
The game was very exciting and tense as I said, since we developed a stalemate. Everytime we fought I beated him back and so did he with me. But in the late game when I hitted critical mass with 3 pak 40s, he could only beat me back when he used this certain ability that had multilpe strafing aircraft that were very powerful. I couldn't really do anything against this ability since the guy had 4 cromwells that charged in as soon as my other soldiers and weapons had to retreat or otherwise they would be killed. I made an Ostwind but the tanks simply swarmed it and killed it whilst I had to reposition my pak40s or see them killed. I placed multiple teller mines, but one tank would hit them and the other 3 could still move in and create damage.
He kept using this kind of attack untill he chipped away my last 100 victory points, he only had about a 100 left too. I didn't use tanks as the brits have this other ability that instantly gives my tanks some kind of stun or other critical damage, yet another ability that I can't really counter. How do you counter these abilities besides winning before this ability gets ready to use by the British player?
Exactly what commander and abilities the other player was using depend on the stun/critical ability you mentioned.
The first (most likely) possibility is that the UKF player had a vet 1 sniper, which would allow him to stun/critical one of your tanks. The strafe would then be, as kitekaze mentioned, from the Vanguard Operations Regiment Strafing Support or Special Weapons Regiment Hold The Line. Countering the stun ability is simply a matter of killing any snipers, while both of the strafe abilities cannot target units that your enemy cannot see. You can also simply move out of the AOE, but that isn't practical with a pak40 wall.
The second possibility is that the UKF player was using the Tactical Support Regiment. The stun/critical comes from the Artillery Cover ability and can be countered by moving out of the AOE, making the enemy lose line of sight on your units or keeping your units moving. The strafe ability in this case would come from the Forward Observation Post. This is extremely unlikely as the FOP costs 300 manpower and 60 fuel, requires an ambient building, and doesn't give any benefit beyond a strafe, recon plane, artillery strike and smoke artillery.
Hope this helped. Good luck! |
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