The callin flares are sort of irrelevant though, they're practically useless in 90% of cases. Other than that, yeah, i agree.
Call in flares are difficult to use but far from useless, if one simply combined them with an off-map one can bomb any part of the map.They should simply be removed.
But those are not the only scouting options for UKF "assault" and "mortar cover" also provide unncounterable vision.
Recon planes in general have sort of a duality, they rely entirely on luck to do their job, and so those that come from one's own base sector are often rather useless, but those that come from opposing base sectors are FAR too effective.
Major/ UKF assault Officer and UHU in patch all have planes that can be spawned from enemy base to spot and destroy enemy howitzers (or other important targets) with off maps.
The claim that is privilege of OKW flares is simply false.
the game has been designed for a last tier rush ever since.
Soviet had different tech system with 2 building and doctrinal unit up until "July 2015 patch".
But lets avoid going at before the Soviet/OKW tech revamp since the game is completely different.
The game was never designed or played for "last tier rush" actually most strategies revolved avoiding even teching to last tier and using doctrinal call in vehicles instead.
Back teching often does not diminish the window of opportunity for units.
The pace of the game is related but it not really the point of this threat. This thread has more to with tech being used as simple time factor (similar to CP) or tech being more important having the add utility of being used for strategic decisions by the player
You cite CoH1 as a good example of needing to chose techs exclusivle (I never played it so I can't judge). But for the most part these exclusive tech structures just brought a lot of problems for balance and are partially still not solved (SOV, USF and OKW all T1/2).
Imo trying to "fix" this problem without clearly redesigning the faction created far more issues than is solve and that has also to do Relic.
USF unit are prime example of this. One can not take a faction is designed with unit that are OP in order to cover hole in the roaster, and suddenly give access to all the roaster expect that everything will be fine.
Sanders post makes it unclear whether he is talking about balance team or CoH2 in general. Because in all versions of CoH2 the lighter vehicles got more and more useless when heavier versions came out. The Scout car was never useful past minute 6-7+, the 222/251 were also only useful until another "heavier" LV hit the field and even more diminished in usefulness once medium tanks arrived. There have been some other strats (like SU76 spam) that worked as well, but many were based on call-in strats that bring their own problems as well.
they usually took the one that costs less effort, would be easier to fix/revert i
I simply can not agree with this but I would rather not comment since I have little reason to criticize the work the MOD team has done. I would rather thank them for the effort.
Feel free to contact me via PM if you interested in more detailed response.
To repeat myself: In this game, there has always been an incentive to tech up and get better armor on the field. The only way to not play like this are rush tactics were you put all eggs into one basket and can insta-forfeit if you fail the strat.
Simply no, call-in stalling has been viable strategy for a longer part this game lifespan.
Locking Super heavies in tech was the final nail in the coffin (and for no apparent reason I might add).
As the last point, I want to come to what - I think - is the core of this discussion:
Lighter vehicles become less useful the longer the game goes, sometimes even to the point where it is almost better to throw them away. If light vehicles were useful in the late game, there would be less incentive to get your highest tier up asap. But they are not, so every one wants heavier tanks quicker than their opponent.
In other threads you often suggested to prolong game phases by delaying units. I already remarked how this would cause reworks for the power level of most units although I generally agree. But in the end it would not solve the problem: Last tier would still be top choice, you'd just need longer to get it. And the player that can use these units first wins if the other one does not tech up.
The only real solution is to increase late game utility of early units. I once made a whole thread about this so I will not repeat myself now, but balance team also implemented a ton of these utility buffs for light vehicles and is still expanding them in the current patch.
For me window of opportunity for unit is only partially related to the issue of the thread.
This thread is about the concept that the optimum way to play the game would be to "rush final tier" and then back tech if you need too. That imo is simply a bad direction for the game to go for a number of reason:
It make a build order stale
It removes decision making from player
It practically removes the tech difference of faction
In the end of the day I do not really see any benefits from it.
Allies already have that in the form of nondoctrinal recon planes, at least for USF. Given that one of these planes comes from the opponent's base sector (At vet), it's similarly nearly uncounterable in practical terms.
It's also worth stating that only Soviet opponents will have artillery vulnerable to such a flare, given that USF and UKF artillery are mobile vehicles, not emplaced guns.
I think the recon tools of a lot of factions need a lot of fiddling with.
Just to clarify
Reckon planes are now available also from UKF and OKW in the patch. In addition UKF have some weird abilities that combine call in or off map with reckon.
It's 25% manpower more, at a much later stage in the game. It's not insignificant.
That does mean you will have 0 Pyro sections, however, and Pyro sections provide good utility to UKF. I'm reasonably sure this argument still holds water.
Don't want to duel here so will try to keep it sort. Difference between FA and Ostheer bunkers are not that great an I do not think that assault IS spam is that viable, in addition it doctrinal issue that should dictate the addition of stock unit.
I agree that they shouldn't be an Unit for UKF, they should either have Base healing, or alternatively they should be able to build FA at the same time as an Ostheer bunker, but with only healing unlockable/usable until an extra premium is paid at the usual teching time, at which point you can get the usual benefit of an FA. What i'm saying is: Medical Sections are AIDS and should have been nerfed regardless of whether or not Medics exist.
Especially since UKF get RoyEs at tier 0, this would be the best solution, I feel.
Think we can all agree that UKF have sufficient healing options even without the medic sqaud.
Think we can all agree that IS simply have too much utility with cashes/spotting/healing/sandbags/trenches.
It is my opinion that some of that utility could and should be move RO.E. especially if they are moved to T0.
That might include some building staff but could also include upgrades like heal and Pyro. Then balancing IS would become allot easier.
Comparing Coh2 with Start craft other RTS is not really helpful because COH series has a completely simplified economy and player does not really make strategic desicion by choosing between investing in the economy or in combat (fighting units/combat tech) .
As I have already pointed out to you in previous post if one compares COH1 to COH2 one will see that in many cases the tech choices a player had to make where more impactful and in way added at extra layer of play.
But that is not even my point. Using the "June 2016 patch" as base of reference, there has been a series of continuous changes that promote the "rush to last Tier" strategy.
That imo is not a good direction for reasons I have explained (but can clarify if you want me too).
It does not really matter how many different units are available if "last tier rush" is the optimum strategy. Unit/tech that delay that strategy will simply be avoided.
I disagree with your points though, because they have a base assumption that was just not there: that the game allowed for multiple builds when the mod team took over.
That is not the "base assumption" nor is this a thread claims that everything was roses when Relic was doing patches and everything is bad when the MOD team took over.
The basis of this thread is the patch notes (included in op) and series of changes over in many patches that are have reduced tech cost and "back tech" cost (I would add here making many doctrinal vehicles available only via last tier). This clearly makes a "last tier rush" strategy more efficient.
Even Sander93 posted did not deny such a trend and said: "incentive has always been there"
I don't assume that Relic assured the mod team continous patches for 2+ years back then, so their most viable option (especially regarding that they are not a dev team) was to take the smallest steps with the highest gain possible.
Relic was never a fun a the "smallest" steps, on the contrary Relic was notorious for overbuffing and overnerfing things in their patches.
Neither did the MOD patches used small step (at least early pachtes)on the contrary some of the MOD patches where the most radical ones.
Only recently there have been comments that indicated that MOD has started to realize how sensitive to change the COH2 ecosystem is. Even now many changes seem to be away from "the smallest steps" since they include multiple buff or nerf in the same unit.
And I don't blame them for taking the easier and more obvious router.
This thread is no way meant to put "blame" on the MOD team. I have always congratulated and supported the MOD for all their hard work, even when I do not agree with the specific changes.
Now the only thing I think you can really critisize the members of the mod team for is that they (afaik) never discussed their vision of the game in case we get as many patches as we got now.
This is an issue but a separate one but I think it run deeper than not communicating the a vision for each fraction.
I suspect there is not real vision since I doubt Relic has given the authority to MOD teams to design factions. Even if they did doubt it would work since the mode team probably work as team and vision requires someone to be in change to have it.
As for Sander93 am under the impression that he acts as spokesmen for the MOD team.
I do have to point out that, most of this is speculations on my behalf and there is little point in debating unless the MOD team decided to share more light on subject.
What we now have after 2-3 years of community patching is undoubtedly a better game with more units and viable builds than ever.
This post is not about weather the game has improved or not when the MOD team took over from Relic. (The sheer number of bugs fixes is an improvement on its own)
On the other hand I do have to point that Super heavy meta and Ostt/WC51 showcase is an indication that MOD team has not manged to solve diversity issues yet.
This threat aims to explain how, imo, tech options can serve more than just a "time factor". Imo one can use the tech choices to add a layer of strategy behind the game making more than just focusing on micro and how it can increase the number of valid strategies and build orders.
I will SU-76 use as random example but the specifics here are not really important.
No matter how much buffs SU-76 it probably not see allot of action in T3 if it delays the optimum strategy of "rushing final tier". Once T4 is unlocked it will still not see allot of action since the SU-85 would now be available and perform better.
It is a result from Relic's core design decisions, mostly the economy system. Unlike vCoH, CoH2 has an abundance of fuel because of the standard territory points which greatly speeds up the different phases. This is amplified in team games. The game does not have very long early and mid game phases because of how quickly these get outclassed by the next phase, encouraging or even forcing players to not get caught up too much in one phase. There is nothing we can do about that without completely redesigning the economy and factions, which isn't something we'd be allowed to do at this stage. We can only work with what we got, and that is that rushing T4/armor is amongst the most powerful/reliable strategies.
That is all correct, there are huge difference between COH1 and COH2 economy.
Going to COH1 system in not realistic option but looking within the the COH2 system one will notice than since the MOD team has taken over of there a continues serious of tech changes reducing cost and allowing access to everything that turn tech choice to more "linear" system.
That imo creates a number of problems. One of the biggest is greatly decreases build diversity since player are "given an incentive to rush towards their final tier" creating a singe optimum tech choice.
That also reduces the "strategic" element of the game since the is a single optimum strategy.
I really hope that the MOD take this into consideration and have a real debate on the issue. If the MOD continues down this direction of less tech choices imo it should at least be a concussions decision that was taken after proper thinking instead of something that just happened.
I wouldn't mind if in CoH3 each faction had an Ostheer-like tech design. With Ostheer you have to make strategic choices on how you spend your resources, but you have the freedom to assign these resources wherever you see fit. Want to go for a FHT but also have LMG42 weapon upgrades? You can! But you have to put focus on the munition points instead of the fuel. It also makes sure you always have the required counters on-hand. This is great design since it plays into CoHs biggest strength, its challenging tactical combined arms gameplay and emphesis on map-control.
Side techs detract from this gameplay experience. It just leads to unit spam (You invested into upgrades for unit A so you are not going to use unit B), cheese wins/losses (P2 rush vs old Soviet T1) and players not being able to spend their resources or having to spend it on 1 or 2 things only (See brits early and midgame for example).
And I have to guess that probably prefer large modes where teching choices are more forgiving.
Your preference is respected.
Imo though tech choices add an extra layer to game especially in small mode. One has to calculate which investment will pay off better depending on number factors like including his opponent faction, his opponent build, map control...
The imo creates the possibility of much more builds instead of the same meta again and again.
Since you have mentioned Ostheer tech I would like use them as an example of what mean. When USF where introduced,they where so versatile that when playing ostheer one had to predict his opponents build and prepare a counter unit or one would lose.
Since the game has allot simpler economy than other RTS (where a player has to choose whether to invest in economy tech or combat tech) imo making combat tech less predictable improves the game and allows more room for diversity in builds.
It inflates the cost and that is undeniable. Purchase price of cons and grens are the same but the fact that if you say, go ostroppen in the preview your tech costs are the exact same as if you go grens but if you were to (for some reason) spam CE and never build a single con you would save resources on tech means cons are more expensive.
CON tech is a cost that only affects cons. They are linked. If you build no cons you do not want to get these techs. If you build cons you probably will. The costs are linked. If you build only 1 con, the techs may not be worth while as they inflate the cost of cons. If you don't build a con squad until you have heavy Armour on the field they will not be fully equipped and require additional investment to get fully kitted
If you never build a single gren you will still tech up. If you build only grens you will still tech up. If you build 1 gren teching up is still cost effecient for kitting out grens. If you don't build a gren until you have a tiger out you have spent only 240mp and have everything you need (obviously discounting weapon upgrades) for them to function. You have no additional costs. 240mp covers everything.
Your argument actually work the other way around.
If one does not build a single conscript one can save the AT grenade/molotovs.
If one does not building a single grenadier will still have payed the cost for faust/riflegrenade/lmg that is included in Ostheer tech cost.
The only way to actually be accurate in comparing the tech cost across the different systems is to calculate the total cost used across the whole game and assigning to the units used during the game.
But all of that is not very relevant. The simply fact remain that Ostheer do not actually have an early advantage because of tech.
4 conscripts builds work just fine but 4 grenadier builds do not work.
The argument that grenadier are cheapest mainline infatry (they are not) and ostheer have an advantage because of that is simply mute.
Apparently they got the medic squad due to Lendlease providing an alternative mainline that can't upgrade to a Medical Section. It really wasn't an elegant solution.
The argument does not hold water, since even if one goes only assault IS one will still have an IS to upgrade to heal and still would have the option for FA.
In addition since this a doctrinal problem it should have a doctrinal solution so the medic should be included in the doctrine (for instance it could be mounted on the m5)